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on this episode of skeptic Oh noted

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cognitive science researcher at the

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University of California Irvine and the

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guy who's blowing the doors off of

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consciousness science dr. Donald Hoffman

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are we preparing for another version of

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shut up and calculate so one reason why

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scientists do mathematical theories is

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because they surprise us they become

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smarter than us and eventually we become

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the students of the theory but I do

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agree that consciousness is the

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fundamental reality and that it

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transcends any of our theories and

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getting a direct connection with that

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conscious experience is very very

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important I actually spend time everyday

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in meditation doing exactly that and

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stick around after the interview for my

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chat about the interview with dr. rich

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Griego

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everybody has their metaphysical

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interpretation of the math and they have

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math that backs up their interpretation

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welcome to skeptical where we explore

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controversial science and spirituality

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with leading researchers thinkers and

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their critics

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I'm your host Alex Karras and as you

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know we spend a lot of time talking

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about consciousness on skeptic oh but as

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you also know if you bring this topic up

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with most people in your life you get at

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best a blank stare and more likely kind

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of a slow nodding of the head as they

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look for a way to get out of the room so

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I think that's what makes it even more

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amazing that today's guest best-selling

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author in highly regarded University of

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California Irvine professor dr. Donald

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Hoffman has been able to break through

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the apathy and confusion over the

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mind-body problem evolutionary

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psychology and what we typically talk

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about as the hard problem of

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consciousness he's done that through

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what is now kind of a

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in our field a famous TED talk that's

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received over 2.7 billion views and is

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titled do we see reality as it is and

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that is quite a remarkable talk if you

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haven't heard it before

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it not only shatters the existing brain

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centric neuroscience model of

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consciousness but more importantly

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offers a new testable theory to replace

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it a theory that is spelled out in his

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excellent and best-selling book that

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we're going to talk about today

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the case against reality why evolution

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hid the truth from our eyes so done it's

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really great to have you here thanks so

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much for joining me on skeptic oh thank

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you alex thanks for inviting me well as

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I mentioned you know there's this TED

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talk that is out there that is really

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quite amazing and I think a lot of

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people have seen and there's also this

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book can you tell us just can you tell

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us anything more about the TED talk how

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that came to be and since I mentioned

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that you know most of us who have

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explored this topic or publicly talked

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about it we're just amazed and delighted

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that you've got such great traction with

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this it would you get to credit for

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you're the guy who delivered it but were

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you at all surprised that so many people

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were interested in this topic and and

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your ideas yes so getting the chance to

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give the TED talk was a big surprise to

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me I was giving a talk at the Tucson

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towards a science of consciousness

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conference so that's you know a lot of

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researchers technical people there and I

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was giving a more technical talk about

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perception and reality evolution

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arguments that we don't see reality as

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it is and then a theory of consciousness

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and and I was you know had the chance to

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be on stage with David Chalmers and Dan

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Dennett so we had some good discussions

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of the ideas that I was presenting there

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and after after that talk Chris Anderson

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who had been in the he's he's the the

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guy that runs Ted he was in the audience

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and he'd watched that whole conversation

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and so that was when he came up

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afterwards and invited me to talk about

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the first part of my conversation with

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him which was about perception and

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reality the stuff about consciousness I

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didn't really talk about in my TED talk

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because I whole mathematical theory of

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consciousness and so forth and a jet

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talk can only be 15 to 18 minutes

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maximum so you have to pick one thing

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and go after that so so Chris Anderson

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worked very well with me he was very

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very helpful in helping me shape my TED

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talk and and he really helped me get the

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ideas out there and you know he was

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interested in the stuff on consciousness

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as well but we but we couldn't you know

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do it all in one 18 minute thing right

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but I think you you lay the foundation

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for it and for anyone who's really kind

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of paid attention to the field you

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definitely see where you're going with

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the TED talk so right that was quite

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quite exciting really so I'll tell you

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what done as you know from the slides

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that I sent you in advance I like to

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play a little game here I call skeptical

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jeopardy kind of turns the tables around

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and lets you pick the topics that we

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talk about so I've shared mostly

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information behind these slides with you

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in advance so I'll go over them for

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those who are listening and then we'll

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have you pick so I have reality robots

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science the spiritual path math yogi ISM

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extended and philosophy so Don where

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would you like to go first well maybe

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we'll start with science and just my

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view about what science is and what it's

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about because that that's sort of the

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general framework that I'm working in

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and and so that might be very very

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helpful well let's go there now I'm

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taking this in maybe a slightly

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different direction but I think it ties

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back to what you're saying so you know

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one of the reoccurring questions on

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skeptic Oh has been how

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kids science science as we know it be so

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wrong about consciousness I mean we're

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talking about a situation where poll

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after poll shows that 90% of people in

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the United States worldwide completely

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disagree with this biological robot

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meaningless universe brain centered idea

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that we have about consciousness and

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maybe even more significantly if we look

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at every civilization we've known

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throughout time would just kind of

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reject out of hand kind of laughingly

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this idea that we are this narrowly

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defined brain based kind of thing so

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this seems to me like an absurd notion

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that science has come up with about

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consciousness so the real question I

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guess I had is how can we really trust

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science going forward you're a great

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advocate of science you speak eloquently

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about the scientific method about how

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beautiful science is done properly but I

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guess I'd turn it around can we really

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trust science when they've dropped the

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ball so badly already I agree that the

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current theories of consciousness among

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my scientific colleagues really do drop

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the ball they they really start with an

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unconscious objective reality of space

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time and matter and they try to boot up

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consciousness from that and and I you

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know I of course I disagree with him I

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think that that's not the right way to

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go about it and it's interesting to ask

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why they do then what's the history

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behind that and why I still have

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confidence in science so so first I

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should should say that my colleagues who

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are physicalists who assume that's based

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on a matter of fundamental then they're

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well-meaning they they're doing the best

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that they know as as scientists and

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human beings so there's no conspiracy

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there there's no it's not that at all

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it's really so here's here's part of the

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history about why they're thinking the

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way they do it has to do partly with

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Galileo and what happened between the

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church and Galileo right so Galileo

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overthrew

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centuries of church dogma that the earth

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is the center of the universe with with

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his telescope and and and is evidence

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for Copernicus the Copernican theory

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that you know the earth is not the

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center of the university or earth goes

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around the Sun and the the religious

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people didn't buy that and they put

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Galileo and in house arrests and

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threatened him with torture if he didn't

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recant and that that sort of set the

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stage for this battle between science

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and and spirituality

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way back then and and many scientists

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still have a feeling that you know if

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that's what spirituality means at all

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then I will have none of it and the

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other aspect to it is they feel like

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look we've had starting with Galileo in

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them especially with Newton and been

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following on science made great strides

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in the using the assumption that

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space-time and unconscious matter are

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the foundations and it's it's truly

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stunning what's happened in the last

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three three and a half centuries it's it

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is completely revolutionized our

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understanding of the universe the

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technology that's come out has been

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stunning and it's raised humanity's

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level of life dramatically

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so so there's this feeling among the

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scientists that look the physicalist

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framework was our way of getting away

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from the the weirdness of the spiritual

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traditions and breaking free look what

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it's look what it's done and it has been

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dramatically successful so that's part

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of where they're coming from it's a big

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part of the whole culture but now and

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the question of the origin of

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consciousness how does consciousness

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arise for and when I was a graduate

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student that was not an acceptable topic

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so I was a graduate student at MIT from

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1979 to 1983 and the artificial

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intelligence lab and what's now the

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brain and cognitive science department

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and I knew that even if I was interested

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in consciousness that was not a serious

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topic for a serious researcher but but

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about ten years later it became a

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serious topic that was

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viewed as a genuine worthwhile

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scientific endeavor largely perhaps due

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to Francis Crick who said we really need

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to take this quite seriously and when

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when Francis said that then the rest of

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the scientists said okay then if a Nobel

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Prize winner says that it's legit then

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we should jump in and what's what we're

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finding and here's where that now I I do

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have faith in science all of the

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theories that my colleagues are

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proposing are of course physical

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Asterius there's integrated information

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theory there's collapse of microtubules

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we can talk about these there's global

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work space or global neural neuronal

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work space theories there are a variety

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of these kinds of theories that are all

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physicalists but we know they don't work

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and when I go to conferences I can

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actually say to my colleagues and by the

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way there's nothing personal here I like

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these guys there and and guys in the

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generic sense they're there they're

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brilliant they're nice people

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we disagree deeply but it's not ad

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hominem it's it's it's we're all trying

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by our best lights to understand what's

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going on and so I will say - you know

278
00:12:20,300 --> 00:12:16,200
like - Stuart Hameroff so what is the

279
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collapse of microtubules that is the

280
00:12:24,490 --> 00:12:22,530
taste of vanilla and and you can't do

281
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that and so the thing about science is

282
00:12:31,160 --> 00:12:29,400
at some point because science requires

283
00:12:33,530 --> 00:12:31,170
mathematically precise theories and

284
00:12:36,230 --> 00:12:33,540
experiments at some point you can no

285
00:12:38,930 --> 00:12:36,240
longer fool yourself you realize you

286
00:12:43,130 --> 00:12:38,940
just don't have the beef you can't do it

287
00:12:46,310 --> 00:12:43,140
and so I'm I'm I'm I know these guys I'm

288
00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:46,320
friends with them and I'm telling them

289
00:12:50,540 --> 00:12:49,050
you don't have the beef and I think that

290
00:12:51,860 --> 00:12:50,550
it's in principle that you don't have

291
00:12:54,530 --> 00:12:51,870
the beef and you're going to have to do

292
00:12:57,710 --> 00:12:54,540
something different you're gonna need a

293
00:13:01,040 --> 00:12:57,720
deeper theory and so you are you are

294
00:13:03,950 --> 00:13:01,050
telling them I I agree let me play a

295
00:13:05,990 --> 00:13:03,960
clip from when I had Bernardo Kastrup

296
00:13:07,550 --> 00:13:06,000
dr. Bernardo Kastrup who you know right

297
00:13:10,880 --> 00:13:07,560
you know Bernard oh yeah we're friends

298
00:13:14,630 --> 00:13:10,890
so that maybe gets more to the point

299
00:13:15,950 --> 00:13:14,640
that I'm trying to make here these

300
00:13:18,260 --> 00:13:15,960
people are just generally

301
00:13:19,670 --> 00:13:18,270
regarded as scientists as the mainstream

302
00:13:21,830 --> 00:13:19,680
scientists we're talking about Richard

303
00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:21,840
Dawkins Lawrence Krauss neil degrasse

304
00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:23,850
tyson i mean the other best tyson

305
00:13:30,320 --> 00:13:26,370
whether we like it or not is the face of

306
00:13:34,940 --> 00:13:30,330
science for many many many americans so

307
00:13:37,970 --> 00:13:34,950
let's see what mainstream science has to

308
00:13:39,830 --> 00:13:37,980
say about consciousness here we go i'm

309
00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:39,840
going to play this clip you can see it

310
00:13:44,990 --> 00:13:43,170
there i'm gonna play it showed you but

311
00:13:47,180 --> 00:13:45,000
you can say something about the question

312
00:13:50,390 --> 00:13:47,190
which you really would wish to know the

313
00:13:50,960 --> 00:13:50,400
answer to and i mean for me it would be

314
00:14:01,130 --> 00:13:50,970
what

315
00:14:03,970 --> 00:14:01,140
that's totally baffling not that you

316
00:14:07,370 --> 00:14:03,980
asked but what i think on this is

317
00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:07,380
consciousness has kind of baffled us for

318
00:14:12,830 --> 00:14:11,010
a while okay and evidence that we

319
00:14:16,790 --> 00:14:12,840
haven't a clue about what consciousness

320
00:14:18,650 --> 00:14:16,800
is is drawn from the image from the fact

321
00:14:21,020 --> 00:14:18,660
of how many books are published on the

322
00:14:24,550 --> 00:14:21,030
topic right we're not really continuing

323
00:14:27,770 --> 00:14:24,560
to publish books not really on like

324
00:14:30,740 --> 00:14:27,780
Newtonian scissors it's done alright so

325
00:14:32,540 --> 00:14:30,750
so the fact that people keep publishing

326
00:14:33,860 --> 00:14:32,550
books on consciousness is the evidence

327
00:14:35,630 --> 00:14:33,870
we don't know anything about it because

328
00:14:37,970 --> 00:14:35,640
if we knew all about it you wouldn't

329
00:14:39,450 --> 00:14:37,980
have to keep published so so what I

330
00:14:49,560 --> 00:14:39,460
wonder

331
00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:49,570
really is no such thing as consciousness

332
00:14:53,220 --> 00:14:51,610
at all and that there's some other

333
00:14:55,350 --> 00:14:53,230
understanding of the functioning of the

334
00:14:59,710 --> 00:14:55,360
human brain that renders that question

335
00:15:10,820 --> 00:14:59,720
obsolete to that I gotta say like oh wow

336
00:15:26,329 --> 00:15:24,110
okay what is so funny about that of

337
00:15:30,319 --> 00:15:26,339
course that last place was Bill Nye the

338
00:15:37,670 --> 00:15:30,329
Science Guy what he was astonished and

339
00:15:40,220 --> 00:15:37,680
Bill was astonished I mean the idea that

340
00:15:43,370 --> 00:15:40,230
maybe consciousness is not there it's

341
00:15:46,730 --> 00:15:43,380
probably the weirdest stupidest idea

342
00:15:48,980 --> 00:15:46,740
ever conceived by a human thought I mean

343
00:15:51,740 --> 00:15:48,990
where does thought take place it takes

344
00:15:55,639 --> 00:15:51,750
place in consciousness so here we have

345
00:15:57,829 --> 00:15:55,649
consciousness speculating about the

346
00:16:00,860 --> 00:15:57,839
possibility that consciousness does not

347
00:16:03,430 --> 00:16:00,870
exist and it may not be there I mean the

348
00:16:05,750 --> 00:16:03,440
very thought is that in your face

349
00:16:07,190 --> 00:16:05,760
contradiction and the fact that

350
00:16:09,139 --> 00:16:07,200
something like this is not only

351
00:16:12,740 --> 00:16:09,149
seriously entertained but even

352
00:16:17,710 --> 00:16:12,750
verbalized by a person with the public

353
00:16:22,819 --> 00:16:17,720
exposure of the gentleman we just saw is

354
00:16:28,760 --> 00:16:22,829
a worrying sign of cultural sickness a

355
00:16:32,269 --> 00:16:28,770
very serious one a worrying sign of

356
00:16:35,510 --> 00:16:32,279
cultural sickness I guess that's closer

357
00:16:38,449 --> 00:16:35,520
to kind of my position regarding science

358
00:16:42,170 --> 00:16:38,459
so let's loop back around it and hit

359
00:16:44,540 --> 00:16:42,180
that again what do you think well yeah I

360
00:16:46,430 --> 00:16:44,550
take a slightly different view I'm more

361
00:16:48,949 --> 00:16:46,440
optimistic about I mean I know these

362
00:16:52,430 --> 00:16:48,959
guys they're my friends and what what I

363
00:16:55,880 --> 00:16:52,440
see is that their the way their thinking

364
00:16:57,769 --> 00:16:55,890
is physicalism the idea that space time

365
00:17:01,040 --> 00:16:57,779
and matter are fundamental has worked

366
00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:01,050
for so many other problems that we've

367
00:17:07,100 --> 00:17:04,050
got to try our best to make it work on

368
00:17:10,069 --> 00:17:07,110
this problem so it's it's not like that

369
00:17:13,790 --> 00:17:10,079
they're degenerate or anything like that

370
00:17:14,750 --> 00:17:13,800
it's rather look this hammer has hit a

371
00:17:16,490 --> 00:17:14,760
lot of other nails

372
00:17:18,470 --> 00:17:16,500
hopefully this hammer will hit the nail

373
00:17:21,020 --> 00:17:18,480
of consciousness we need to keep trying

374
00:17:23,850 --> 00:17:21,030
you know I'm a gadfly the one thing I

375
00:17:25,260 --> 00:17:23,860
guess I interject there is it the same

376
00:17:30,570 --> 00:17:25,270
you know you said you're in the AI lab

377
00:17:33,270 --> 00:17:30,580
at MIT and I was 73 right 79 to 83 79-83

378
00:17:35,970 --> 00:17:33,280
great I was studying hey I as well at

379
00:17:40,440 --> 00:17:35,980
that time ph.d program at the university

380
00:17:43,320 --> 00:17:40,450
or ism at that same time and Stanford

381
00:17:45,510 --> 00:17:43,330
Research Institute helped put up in

382
00:17:48,180 --> 00:17:45,520
Russell Targ we're way past this right

383
00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:48,190
they were doing experiments with remote

384
00:17:53,130 --> 00:17:50,730
viewing the presuppose that the silly

385
00:17:55,410 --> 00:17:53,140
physicalism thing was just they knew

386
00:17:57,299 --> 00:17:55,420
that was blown away because they'd

387
00:18:00,390 --> 00:17:57,309
already proven it over and over again in

388
00:18:02,610 --> 00:18:00,400
the lab so we have this kind of hidden

389
00:18:05,549 --> 00:18:02,620
college thing going on here as well

390
00:18:08,370 --> 00:18:05,559
where there's some people in the know

391
00:18:10,919 --> 00:18:08,380
who have moved way past this long ago

392
00:18:13,320 --> 00:18:10,929
and they seem to really be closer to the

393
00:18:15,900 --> 00:18:13,330
folks who are in power and then we have

394
00:18:17,669 --> 00:18:15,910
kind of Neil deGrasse Tyson playing this

395
00:18:19,289 --> 00:18:17,679
little kind of mean Boston the woods

396
00:18:22,470 --> 00:18:19,299
kind of thing and we can all laugh at it

397
00:18:25,070 --> 00:18:22,480
but are they really not worthy actions

398
00:18:28,890 --> 00:18:25,080
at that's another question I guess idea

399
00:18:30,930 --> 00:18:28,900
right well I think that that's the way

400
00:18:35,520 --> 00:18:30,940
revolutions in science happen you

401
00:18:37,140 --> 00:18:35,530
usually have a few people who are doing

402
00:18:40,400 --> 00:18:37,150
something different than the mainstream

403
00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:40,410
and it it takes a long time for

404
00:18:44,580 --> 00:18:42,850
scientists we're a conservative group

405
00:18:47,070 --> 00:18:44,590
we're very very conservative in the

406
00:18:49,380 --> 00:18:47,080
sense that you know if you're going to

407
00:18:51,690 --> 00:18:49,390
rattle a deep theory you're gonna have

408
00:18:55,320 --> 00:18:51,700
to really rattle it hard before we we

409
00:18:57,390 --> 00:18:55,330
take it seriously so so yeah a few

410
00:18:59,640 --> 00:18:57,400
people here they're doing some you know

411
00:19:01,380 --> 00:18:59,650
finding some psy phenomenon so forth

412
00:19:04,770 --> 00:19:01,390
isn't gonna be enough to rattle that

413
00:19:08,070 --> 00:19:04,780
that cage partly because there's no

414
00:19:11,039 --> 00:19:08,080
theory now if for example of help put

415
00:19:12,990 --> 00:19:11,049
Hough and his team had proposed a

416
00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:13,000
mathematically precise theory where they

417
00:19:17,039 --> 00:19:15,490
say exactly what the parameters of

418
00:19:18,090 --> 00:19:17,049
remote viewing would be when it would be

419
00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:18,100
when it would happen

420
00:19:23,340 --> 00:19:20,290
or like precognition the work that Daryl

421
00:19:25,200 --> 00:19:23,350
BEM did if if they had a mathematical

422
00:19:27,659 --> 00:19:25,210
theory that said here's why it'll be a

423
00:19:32,310 --> 00:19:27,669
400 millisecond precognition signal not

424
00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:32,320
4,000 or 400,000 milliseconds then that

425
00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:34,450
would really have shaken people up in

426
00:19:37,940 --> 00:19:36,850
the in the scientific community so so

427
00:19:42,870 --> 00:19:37,950
there's

428
00:19:45,120 --> 00:19:42,880
do to get the attention of these people

429
00:19:47,820 --> 00:19:45,130
in the sciences it's not just the

430
00:19:52,440 --> 00:19:47,830
experiments you need a predictive theory

431
00:19:54,510 --> 00:19:52,450
so so for example if Einstein in 1905

432
00:19:57,210 --> 00:19:54,520
had just said you know I think Newton

433
00:20:01,110 --> 00:19:57,220
was wrong and you know I think the

434
00:20:03,330 --> 00:20:01,120
perihelion of mercury moving around is

435
00:20:06,000 --> 00:20:03,340
is evidence of that we would never have

436
00:20:07,710 --> 00:20:06,010
heard of him but what he did instead you

437
00:20:09,630 --> 00:20:07,720
know in 1905 and then in this general

438
00:20:11,340 --> 00:20:09,640
theory of relativity he said here's my

439
00:20:13,650 --> 00:20:11,350
equation here's exactly I'm gonna

440
00:20:16,919 --> 00:20:13,660
predict exactly how much light will Bend

441
00:20:19,980 --> 00:20:16,929
and precisely where mercury will be and

442
00:20:22,289 --> 00:20:19,990
we'll see what you know and we'll test

443
00:20:24,659 --> 00:20:22,299
that against Newton and it was when the

444
00:20:26,789 --> 00:20:24,669
experiments confirmed the precise

445
00:20:28,740 --> 00:20:26,799
mathematical predictions of his equation

446
00:20:31,680 --> 00:20:28,750
of general activity that's when he burst

447
00:20:33,450 --> 00:20:31,690
on the scene until then he was nobody to

448
00:20:36,510 --> 00:20:33,460
the world and that's what we're going to

449
00:20:38,070 --> 00:20:36,520
have to have the the scientists this is

450
00:20:40,110 --> 00:20:38,080
just the way the game is played if you

451
00:20:42,630 --> 00:20:40,120
don't have a mathematical theory you're

452
00:20:45,360 --> 00:20:42,640
not even in the game experiments by

453
00:20:46,860 --> 00:20:45,370
themselves are not enough and so that's

454
00:20:48,419 --> 00:20:46,870
what I'm working on right now is trying

455
00:20:50,130 --> 00:20:48,429
to get a mathematical theory of

456
00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:50,140
consciousness that's completely rigorous

457
00:20:55,530 --> 00:20:53,290
and try to make new predictions in space

458
00:20:59,490 --> 00:20:55,540
and time in what I call our interface um

459
00:21:02,159 --> 00:20:59,500
that they cannot make what once we do

460
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:02,169
that watch them take us very very

461
00:21:06,030 --> 00:21:04,450
seriously so what we have to understand

462
00:21:08,669 --> 00:21:06,040
is how the game of science is played

463
00:21:10,500 --> 00:21:08,679
it's not just experiments it's really

464
00:21:13,680 --> 00:21:10,510
precise mathematically precise theories

465
00:21:16,020 --> 00:21:13,690
that make stunning new predictions the

466
00:21:17,850 --> 00:21:16,030
last one will get their attention so so

467
00:21:20,060 --> 00:21:17,860
again Mike these are these all these

468
00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:20,070
people are my friends and they're sharp

469
00:21:25,470 --> 00:21:21,970
and they're waiting for us to come up

470
00:21:28,110 --> 00:21:25,480
with a theory maybe maybe we'll put a

471
00:21:30,870 --> 00:21:28,120
pin in that as they say and see if we

472
00:21:31,770 --> 00:21:30,880
can come back to that uh where should we

473
00:21:35,010 --> 00:21:31,780
go next

474
00:21:37,110 --> 00:21:35,020
on these categories actually let me pick

475
00:21:41,310 --> 00:21:37,120
one because you're generous to kind of

476
00:21:43,919 --> 00:21:41,320
skip past just really talking about your

477
00:21:46,440 --> 00:21:43,929
book your amazing book which does lay

478
00:21:49,830 --> 00:21:46,450
out as you just said this theory of

479
00:21:51,420 --> 00:21:49,840
consciousness and how we may get to the

480
00:21:54,870 --> 00:21:51,430
math behind it

481
00:21:58,640 --> 00:21:54,880
the book is the case against reality why

482
00:22:03,300 --> 00:21:58,650
evolution hid the truth from our eyes

483
00:22:07,650 --> 00:22:03,310
tell folks in a nutshell what the theory

484
00:22:11,070 --> 00:22:07,660
is about so what I do in this theory is

485
00:22:13,280 --> 00:22:11,080
I assume for sake of argument that

486
00:22:15,390 --> 00:22:13,290
evolution by natural selection is true

487
00:22:20,310 --> 00:22:15,400
because all of my colleagues believe

488
00:22:22,440 --> 00:22:20,320
that and I asked the question if our

489
00:22:26,510 --> 00:22:22,450
sense is evolved and were shaped by

490
00:22:31,380 --> 00:22:26,520
natural selection would we be shaped by

491
00:22:34,020 --> 00:22:31,390
evolution to see truths about objective

492
00:22:35,730 --> 00:22:34,030
reality now no one thinks we see all the

493
00:22:37,740 --> 00:22:35,740
truth about objective reality but the

494
00:22:40,080 --> 00:22:37,750
question is would we be shaped to see

495
00:22:42,900 --> 00:22:40,090
some truths like our perceptions of

496
00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:42,910
space and time of an apple of the moon

497
00:22:48,720 --> 00:22:46,410
of a table and chair are we truly seeing

498
00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:48,730
something about objective reality a

499
00:22:52,230 --> 00:22:50,890
reality that would exist even if no one

500
00:22:54,780 --> 00:22:52,240
were there to look at it

501
00:22:57,150 --> 00:22:54,790
so does that Apple exist and have that

502
00:22:58,770 --> 00:22:57,160
red color on that Apple shape even if

503
00:23:01,260 --> 00:22:58,780
there were no creatures to perceive it

504
00:23:05,010 --> 00:23:01,270
so most of my colleagues would say

505
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:05,020
absolutely space-time exists the Apple

506
00:23:09,570 --> 00:23:07,090
exists the moon exists and it has

507
00:23:12,510 --> 00:23:09,580
roughly the properties that we see even

508
00:23:14,940 --> 00:23:12,520
if no one looks at it and they give an

509
00:23:17,390 --> 00:23:14,950
evolutionary argument they say the

510
00:23:21,420 --> 00:23:17,400
reason we can believe that is because

511
00:23:25,910 --> 00:23:21,430
organisms that see reality as it is have

512
00:23:28,290 --> 00:23:25,920
a competitive advantage in the the big

513
00:23:30,120 --> 00:23:28,300
processes of life feeding fighting

514
00:23:31,440 --> 00:23:30,130
fleeing and mating they have a

515
00:23:33,870 --> 00:23:31,450
competitive advantage over those who

516
00:23:35,640 --> 00:23:33,880
don't see reality as it is so those who

517
00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:35,650
see more accurately are more likely to

518
00:23:39,870 --> 00:23:37,930
pass on their genes and so we can be

519
00:23:42,720 --> 00:23:39,880
confident that we see reality as it is

520
00:23:45,150 --> 00:23:42,730
and this is by the way one reason why

521
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:45,160
physicalism is a dominant view what we

522
00:23:48,720 --> 00:23:47,170
see is a space and time and physical

523
00:23:49,590 --> 00:23:48,730
universe that looks like it's you know

524
00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:49,600
unconscious

525
00:23:53,010 --> 00:23:51,610
you know rocks don't look conscious

526
00:23:54,500 --> 00:23:53,020
planets don't look conscious and so

527
00:23:59,760 --> 00:23:54,510
forth space doesn't look conscious and

528
00:24:03,180 --> 00:23:59,770
so I decided to tackle that question are

529
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:03,190
we mistaken when we think that evolution

530
00:24:06,270 --> 00:24:05,050
shaped just to see the truth

531
00:24:07,860 --> 00:24:06,280
and what I was able to show in

532
00:24:09,870 --> 00:24:07,870
simulations with with my graduate

533
00:24:12,530 --> 00:24:09,880
students Justin mark and Brian Marian

534
00:24:15,000 --> 00:24:12,540
and then with my my mathematical

535
00:24:18,380 --> 00:24:15,010
professor colleague and friend Chetan

536
00:24:22,320 --> 00:24:18,390
Prakash we were able to show that

537
00:24:24,810 --> 00:24:22,330
evolution does not favor creatures that

538
00:24:28,110 --> 00:24:24,820
see reality as it is it drives them to

539
00:24:29,700 --> 00:24:28,120
extinction and that's that's important

540
00:24:30,930 --> 00:24:29,710
for this question about the physical

541
00:24:33,540 --> 00:24:30,940
world and consciousness for the

542
00:24:35,820 --> 00:24:33,550
following reason what it what it means

543
00:24:38,820 --> 00:24:35,830
is that our perceptions of space and

544
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:38,830
time and physical objects is not an

545
00:24:42,810 --> 00:24:40,090
insight into the truth

546
00:24:45,150 --> 00:24:42,820
it's just our user interface its

547
00:24:47,370 --> 00:24:45,160
evolution has given us like a desktop

548
00:24:50,490 --> 00:24:47,380
interface that's there to keep us alive

549
00:24:52,770 --> 00:24:50,500
and to hide hide the truth I like to

550
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:52,780
give the example of like the desktop on

551
00:24:58,020 --> 00:24:54,490
your computer right if you're if you're

552
00:25:00,780 --> 00:24:58,030
writing a book and the icon for your

553
00:25:01,890 --> 00:25:00,790
book is you know green and rectangular

554
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:01,900
in the middle of your screen does it

555
00:25:05,160 --> 00:25:03,010
mean that the book itself in your

556
00:25:06,870 --> 00:25:05,170
computer is green and rectangular in the

557
00:25:08,460 --> 00:25:06,880
middle of the computer of course not

558
00:25:10,230 --> 00:25:08,470
anybody who thought that is missing the

559
00:25:11,610 --> 00:25:10,240
whole point of the interface it's not

560
00:25:13,260 --> 00:25:11,620
there to show you the truth which in

561
00:25:15,990 --> 00:25:13,270
that metaphor is the diodes and

562
00:25:17,430 --> 00:25:16,000
resistors and voltages and software it's

563
00:25:19,530 --> 00:25:17,440
there to hide that the interface is to

564
00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:19,540
hide the truth to hide all that

565
00:25:24,420 --> 00:25:22,090
complexity and give you simple eye candy

566
00:25:27,290 --> 00:25:24,430
that lets you control the reality even

567
00:25:30,510 --> 00:25:27,300
though you're ignorant of it and so so

568
00:25:32,970 --> 00:25:30,520
but that's what evolution has done it

569
00:25:35,490 --> 00:25:32,980
has given us an interface of virtual

570
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:35,500
reality that hides whatever the

571
00:25:40,980 --> 00:25:37,810
objective reality might be and gives us

572
00:25:42,690 --> 00:25:40,990
just simple species-specific bells and

573
00:25:44,850 --> 00:25:42,700
whistles and you know eye candy that we

574
00:25:47,700 --> 00:25:44,860
can use to interact with that reality

575
00:25:48,900 --> 00:25:47,710
and the reason that's important for my

576
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:48,910
interaction with my colleagues on this

577
00:25:52,680 --> 00:25:51,250
is that they think that well what we see

578
00:25:55,680 --> 00:25:52,690
space time and matter we're seeing the

579
00:25:56,760 --> 00:25:55,690
truth I'm saying no no we're we create

580
00:25:59,190 --> 00:25:56,770
space time and matter

581
00:26:01,470 --> 00:25:59,200
that's not fundamental that's something

582
00:26:03,090 --> 00:26:01,480
that our consciousness creates space

583
00:26:06,420 --> 00:26:03,100
time and matter are the products of our

584
00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:06,430
consciousness not vice-versa let's move

585
00:26:12,630 --> 00:26:09,210
on where would you like to go next

586
00:26:14,730 --> 00:26:12,640
well let's see it's harder from here I

587
00:26:18,600 --> 00:26:14,740
got but there's still jeopardy in there

588
00:26:19,180 --> 00:26:18,610
too no there is okay well so maybe we

589
00:26:22,330 --> 00:26:19,190
could talk

590
00:26:22,900 --> 00:26:22,340
good about the math side of things okay

591
00:26:25,390 --> 00:26:22,910
great

592
00:26:27,340 --> 00:26:25,400
one of the things that we have on

593
00:26:29,470 --> 00:26:27,350
skeptiko that I really appreciate is we

594
00:26:31,180 --> 00:26:29,480
have an online forum where people can

595
00:26:32,590 --> 00:26:31,190
get on and talk about topics after we

596
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:32,600
talk about them on the show and I really

597
00:26:37,210 --> 00:26:34,250
appreciate I've learned so much from

598
00:26:38,470 --> 00:26:37,220
people who listen to the show and as I

599
00:26:40,720 --> 00:26:38,480
was are preparing for this I remember

600
00:26:42,280 --> 00:26:40,730
one thing particularly that really one

601
00:26:45,100 --> 00:26:42,290
instance when I learned a lot we're

602
00:26:48,100 --> 00:26:45,110
talking about simulation theory and the

603
00:26:52,360 --> 00:26:48,110
idea that maybe our reality since we're

604
00:26:58,930 --> 00:26:52,370
talking about reality is an matrix kinda

605
00:27:01,660 --> 00:26:58,940
AI driven version of virtual reality and

606
00:27:06,400 --> 00:27:01,670
I thought one very succinct comment from

607
00:27:08,380 --> 00:27:06,410
the forum was simulation of what because

608
00:27:11,050 --> 00:27:08,390
those of us who are drawn to the

609
00:27:12,700 --> 00:27:11,060
simulation theory accept this idea that

610
00:27:15,100 --> 00:27:12,710
there's a simulation never ask a

611
00:27:17,770 --> 00:27:15,110
simulation of what who is the designer

612
00:27:19,540 --> 00:27:17,780
who is the Grand Master who's simulated

613
00:27:22,150 --> 00:27:19,550
Nedim who's simulating their reality and

614
00:27:25,290 --> 00:27:22,160
it's Turtles all the way down if you

615
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:25,300
know anything so I wonder the same thing

616
00:27:32,980 --> 00:27:29,810
about math I appreciate that what you

617
00:27:35,470 --> 00:27:32,990
said earlier about science at its core

618
00:27:39,460 --> 00:27:35,480
is driven by models that are best

619
00:27:42,340 --> 00:27:39,470
expressed as mathematical equations but

620
00:27:44,530 --> 00:27:42,350
those are abstractions of reality at the

621
00:27:46,720 --> 00:27:44,540
same time and we appreciate that but I

622
00:27:51,550 --> 00:27:46,730
wonder if we kind of gloss over the fact

623
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:51,560
that the model is a model of what what

624
00:27:58,840 --> 00:27:55,610
is the underlying reality of that model

625
00:28:00,910 --> 00:27:58,850
and before I even let you jump in there

626
00:28:03,700 --> 00:28:00,920
I'd kind of point out our history here

627
00:28:07,660 --> 00:28:03,710
which we know the history of quantum

628
00:28:08,080 --> 00:28:07,670
physics if you will and a hundred years

629
00:28:10,450 --> 00:28:08,090
ago

630
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:10,460
all the great quantum physicists who

631
00:28:16,570 --> 00:28:13,490
basically reached this same point and

632
00:28:19,270 --> 00:28:16,580
said what Max Planck is famous for

633
00:28:23,470 --> 00:28:19,280
saying I regard consciousness as

634
00:28:27,120 --> 00:28:23,480
fundamental which is very close to what

635
00:28:30,040 --> 00:28:27,130
you're saying as well but then as you

636
00:28:31,850 --> 00:28:30,050
basically recounted in the segment we

637
00:28:34,700 --> 00:28:31,860
did about science

638
00:28:36,200 --> 00:28:34,710
what we've done is just an end run on

639
00:28:37,760 --> 00:28:36,210
that which we can understand and

640
00:28:40,460 --> 00:28:37,770
appreciate that the shut up and

641
00:28:43,340 --> 00:28:40,470
calculate forget about the philosophical

642
00:28:46,930 --> 00:28:43,350
implications of that let's just see what

643
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:46,940
we can crank out in terms of dazzling

644
00:28:54,440 --> 00:28:49,770
technology that we can build off of that

645
00:28:58,340 --> 00:28:54,450
and I guess that's my concern about the

646
00:29:00,650 --> 00:28:58,350
modeling that you're doing and where

647
00:29:04,430 --> 00:29:00,660
we're going with that and are we just

648
00:29:06,530 --> 00:29:04,440
preparing for another version of shut up

649
00:29:10,070 --> 00:29:06,540
and calculate where we don't really

650
00:29:14,210 --> 00:29:10,080
address the underlying implications of

651
00:29:16,220 --> 00:29:14,220
that reality shattering new reality so

652
00:29:18,590 --> 00:29:16,230
any thoughts on any of that

653
00:29:21,110 --> 00:29:18,600
yes well first I certainly agree with

654
00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:21,120
mocks plunk that consciousness is

655
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:22,530
fundamental and matter is derivative

656
00:29:28,070 --> 00:29:25,410
absolutely it's it's well spoken and and

657
00:29:30,070 --> 00:29:28,080
other of the great quantum theorists

658
00:29:32,510 --> 00:29:30,080
that the foundation of it thought that

659
00:29:34,010 --> 00:29:32,520
big nura think thought that in von

660
00:29:38,270 --> 00:29:34,020
Neumann thought the consciousness was

661
00:29:41,240 --> 00:29:38,280
was important and fundamental many of

662
00:29:43,039 --> 00:29:41,250
the early quantum theorists were very

663
00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:43,049
interested in the broader implications

664
00:29:46,669 --> 00:29:44,250
of the theory they it seemed to be

665
00:29:48,020 --> 00:29:46,679
challenging our thoughts about reality

666
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:48,030
and they wanted to really explore that

667
00:29:53,270 --> 00:29:51,570
and then World War two came along and

668
00:29:54,710 --> 00:29:53,280
that really sidetracked everything

669
00:29:58,130 --> 00:29:54,720
because what happened was they needed

670
00:30:00,620 --> 00:29:58,140
all these quantum physicists to help

671
00:30:03,919 --> 00:30:00,630
them with technology to win the war and

672
00:30:07,280 --> 00:30:03,929
it and they did they built the atomic

673
00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:07,290
bomb it was revolutionary and all of a

674
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:09,690
sudden there was big big money and so

675
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:12,330
that that changed the whole framework of

676
00:30:17,600 --> 00:30:15,090
physics it became a part of the

677
00:30:19,610 --> 00:30:17,610
military-industrial complex and the shut

678
00:30:22,580 --> 00:30:19,620
up and calculate attitude came out of

679
00:30:24,950 --> 00:30:22,590
World War two and the big money so so

680
00:30:26,390 --> 00:30:24,960
that was a big a big tragedy World War

681
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:26,400
two is a big tragedy in a number of ways

682
00:30:31,370 --> 00:30:29,210
it stopped this deep philosophical

683
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:31,380
inquiry into what the mathematics was

684
00:30:35,030 --> 00:30:33,090
telling us and it got us into this more

685
00:30:37,970 --> 00:30:35,040
military industrial complex kind of

686
00:30:39,530 --> 00:30:37,980
attitude and we're now slowly wrestling

687
00:30:41,570 --> 00:30:39,540
our way out of that that attitude and

688
00:30:43,610 --> 00:30:41,580
going back to trying to ask the deeper

689
00:30:45,560 --> 00:30:43,620
questions but the question you ask is a

690
00:30:52,490 --> 00:30:45,570
good one what what is the math of

691
00:30:55,430 --> 00:30:52,500
about and one reason why scientists love

692
00:30:57,200 --> 00:30:55,440
mathematics is it forces you to be

693
00:30:59,960 --> 00:30:57,210
absolutely precise in what you predict

694
00:31:02,690 --> 00:30:59,970
you can't hide it's more much much

695
00:31:04,640 --> 00:31:02,700
harder to hide and you you know what

696
00:31:07,220 --> 00:31:04,650
Einstein wrote down his equations if he

697
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:07,230
was off by 5% or 10% on predictions

698
00:31:12,980 --> 00:31:10,890
about where mercury is then that's gonna

699
00:31:17,030 --> 00:31:12,990
be a problem for him and so you you you

700
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:17,040
you do mathematics in part to be precise

701
00:31:21,470 --> 00:31:18,570
you can find out precisely where you're

702
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:21,480
wrong but also because once you write

703
00:31:25,430 --> 00:31:23,730
down a mathematical theory the theory

704
00:31:27,380 --> 00:31:25,440
becomes smarter than the person who

705
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:27,390
wrote it down like when Einstein wrote

706
00:31:32,510 --> 00:31:30,330
down the equation of generality he had

707
00:31:35,150 --> 00:31:32,520
no idea that it was going to predict

708
00:31:37,100 --> 00:31:35,160
black holes he didn't know that but the

709
00:31:38,930 --> 00:31:37,110
equations do predict black holes and he

710
00:31:41,390 --> 00:31:38,940
didn't like it he didn't believe in them

711
00:31:43,160 --> 00:31:41,400
but he was wrong and the theory had a

712
00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:43,170
deeper in some sense a deeper insight

713
00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:45,210
into reality than the person who wrote

714
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:47,970
it down so one reason why scientists do

715
00:31:53,570 --> 00:31:50,490
mathematical theories is because they

716
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:53,580
surprised us they become smarter than us

717
00:31:59,360 --> 00:31:55,890
and eventually we become the students of

718
00:32:00,770 --> 00:31:59,370
the theory now of course Einstein's

719
00:32:03,620 --> 00:32:00,780
general relativity is not the final

720
00:32:05,870 --> 00:32:03,630
answer his equation we know there has to

721
00:32:08,660 --> 00:32:05,880
be something deeper but we know that

722
00:32:11,180 --> 00:32:08,670
because his equation is so precise we

723
00:32:14,270 --> 00:32:11,190
begin to get insights into precisely

724
00:32:17,000 --> 00:32:14,280
where it fails and that's the power of

725
00:32:19,820 --> 00:32:17,010
the mathematics it tells you it's so

726
00:32:21,550 --> 00:32:19,830
precise that it tells you when the

727
00:32:23,810 --> 00:32:21,560
mathematics stops and fails so

728
00:32:26,570 --> 00:32:23,820
Einstein's equations have a singularity

729
00:32:28,630 --> 00:32:26,580
at a black hole when you have it with an

730
00:32:31,130 --> 00:32:28,640
infinity in your equations that means

731
00:32:33,500 --> 00:32:31,140
you've got an error that's it that's a

732
00:32:35,570 --> 00:32:33,510
big big error signal so we know that

733
00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:35,580
general relativity can't be the final

734
00:32:40,250 --> 00:32:38,370
answer and it tells it to us itself by

735
00:32:42,440 --> 00:32:40,260
saying I get the answer infinity here

736
00:32:47,360 --> 00:32:42,450
there's something wrong with the theory

737
00:32:50,720 --> 00:32:47,370
so but hold on because sure again it is

738
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:50,730
still an abstraction so it's a great

739
00:32:57,390 --> 00:32:54,130
tool and you do an awesome job of

740
00:33:01,350 --> 00:32:57,400
quickly describing how beautiful that

741
00:33:04,680 --> 00:33:01,360
tool is but we don't want to slip into

742
00:33:07,799 --> 00:33:04,690
the mode of starting to believe that the

743
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:07,809
tool is the ultimate reality right

744
00:33:12,750 --> 00:33:10,330
because I think that is fundamental that

745
00:33:15,900 --> 00:33:12,760
is the philosophical part and maybe

746
00:33:19,830 --> 00:33:15,910
we'll even jump to the philosophical

747
00:33:24,210 --> 00:33:19,840
slide in this because philosophy in my

748
00:33:28,980 --> 00:33:24,220
view it begins where science cannot go

749
00:33:31,080 --> 00:33:28,990
so you know the philosophical quote that

750
00:33:35,399 --> 00:33:31,090
I popped up on the screen is one of my

751
00:33:37,970 --> 00:33:35,409
favorite ones from Albert Camus there's

752
00:33:41,940 --> 00:33:37,980
only one true serious philosophical

753
00:33:44,669 --> 00:33:41,950
problem and that is suicide and the

754
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:44,679
reason I like it is because it's so

755
00:33:50,820 --> 00:33:47,650
stark in drawing our attention to the

756
00:33:54,539 --> 00:33:50,830
fact that the true deepest questions

757
00:33:57,960 --> 00:33:54,549
that we can ask about who are we and why

758
00:34:02,220 --> 00:33:57,970
are we here always get down to a

759
00:34:05,190 --> 00:34:02,230
question of meaning and models can never

760
00:34:07,409 --> 00:34:05,200
answer the meaning question so it's fun

761
00:34:09,599 --> 00:34:07,419
to play with the models and explore the

762
00:34:12,149 --> 00:34:09,609
limits of the models the equations like

763
00:34:16,109 --> 00:34:12,159
you're talking about but I do think

764
00:34:19,470 --> 00:34:16,119
there is peril in avoiding the deeper

765
00:34:21,720 --> 00:34:19,480
philosophical questions and this one in

766
00:34:24,300 --> 00:34:21,730
particular you have any thoughts on how

767
00:34:26,300 --> 00:34:24,310
we get to the meaning questions because

768
00:34:29,580 --> 00:34:26,310
that's what I think people really live

769
00:34:31,050 --> 00:34:29,590
right your point is well-taken so for

770
00:34:34,290 --> 00:34:31,060
example if I'm using a mathematical

771
00:34:35,609 --> 00:34:34,300
model to simulate the weather and I

772
00:34:37,680 --> 00:34:35,619
bring you into the computer room where

773
00:34:39,149 --> 00:34:37,690
I'm running this simulation you don't

774
00:34:42,030 --> 00:34:39,159
need an umbrella you're not going to get

775
00:34:44,790 --> 00:34:42,040
wet the math isn't the territory and the

776
00:34:47,010 --> 00:34:44,800
math will never create the phenomena

777
00:34:49,230 --> 00:34:47,020
that that you're modeling so the math is

778
00:34:51,389 --> 00:34:49,240
just a model it's not that it's not the

779
00:34:52,740 --> 00:34:51,399
reality and so we shouldn't make that

780
00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:52,750
mistake I absolutely agree with you on

781
00:34:58,890 --> 00:34:56,290
that point so this comes up with the

782
00:35:00,930 --> 00:34:58,900
spirituality thing as well so someone at

783
00:35:03,060 --> 00:35:00,940
one point when I was giving my my

784
00:35:07,200 --> 00:35:03,070
mathematical theory of consciousness at

785
00:35:07,950 --> 00:35:07,210
the end said quoted a famous spiritual

786
00:35:11,310 --> 00:35:07,960
teacher

787
00:35:16,410 --> 00:35:11,320
you his name will come to me he said the

788
00:35:22,109 --> 00:35:16,420
the language of God is silence all else

789
00:35:23,670 --> 00:35:22,119
is poor translation great and and of

790
00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:23,680
course the point that this person was

791
00:35:28,680 --> 00:35:25,810
making was that my mathematical model of

792
00:35:30,390 --> 00:35:28,690
consciousness is just math and you know

793
00:35:32,730 --> 00:35:30,400
the reality transcends anything that

794
00:35:34,829 --> 00:35:32,740
math could possibly discuss and and and

795
00:35:38,190 --> 00:35:34,839
I think that's this point well taken

796
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:38,200
so my attitude is is this um I think

797
00:35:42,960 --> 00:35:40,690
pointed point is well-taken if someone

798
00:35:45,270 --> 00:35:42,970
says to me the language of God is

799
00:35:49,290 --> 00:35:45,280
silence all else's poor translation and

800
00:35:52,170 --> 00:35:49,300
then being consistent says nothing else

801
00:35:54,270 --> 00:35:52,180
I would actually very much respect that

802
00:35:58,230 --> 00:35:54,280
I'm not being facetious I would if

803
00:35:59,640 --> 00:35:58,240
someone said look the reality transcends

804
00:36:03,390 --> 00:35:59,650
math and words

805
00:36:05,760 --> 00:36:03,400
end of story and you just have to be

806
00:36:07,589 --> 00:36:05,770
with the reality I completely respect

807
00:36:09,630 --> 00:36:07,599
that but but when you look at the

808
00:36:12,030 --> 00:36:09,640
spiritual traditions what what most of

809
00:36:14,730 --> 00:36:12,040
them do is they write lots of words they

810
00:36:18,180 --> 00:36:14,740
write there's the Bible the Koran the

811
00:36:21,180 --> 00:36:18,190
Bhagavad Gita and so forth and so so my

812
00:36:25,740 --> 00:36:21,190
attitude then is if we're going to not

813
00:36:29,190 --> 00:36:25,750
be silent then the question is don't we

814
00:36:31,560 --> 00:36:29,200
want to use the most precise language we

815
00:36:34,109 --> 00:36:31,570
possibly can so that we can find out as

816
00:36:37,020 --> 00:36:34,119
quickly as possible if what we're saying

817
00:36:39,300 --> 00:36:37,030
is nonsense or not if we jet and it

818
00:36:41,609 --> 00:36:39,310
turns out with mathematics you can

819
00:36:43,500 --> 00:36:41,619
quickly find out if if you're being

820
00:36:44,970 --> 00:36:43,510
inconsistent and you can actually

821
00:36:48,060 --> 00:36:44,980
quickly find out if you are making

822
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:48,070
predictions that are that are false it's

823
00:36:52,109 --> 00:36:49,570
hard to do that with just everyday

824
00:36:53,700 --> 00:36:52,119
language it's easier to hide if you use

825
00:36:56,940 --> 00:36:53,710
everyday language it's very easier to

826
00:36:59,820 --> 00:36:56,950
hide and and say and even to say

827
00:37:02,700 --> 00:36:59,830
nonsense and not be caught so if we so

828
00:37:05,460 --> 00:37:02,710
my attitude is again and I'm not at all

829
00:37:06,990 --> 00:37:05,470
being facetious someone who says silence

830
00:37:09,390 --> 00:37:07,000
is it and remains in silence I

831
00:37:11,430 --> 00:37:09,400
completely respect that that may be the

832
00:37:12,960 --> 00:37:11,440
deepest point of view it may be far far

833
00:37:14,940 --> 00:37:12,970
deeper than a mathematical point of view

834
00:37:17,010 --> 00:37:14,950
and I and I really mean that but if

835
00:37:19,770 --> 00:37:17,020
we're going to talk if we're going to

836
00:37:21,520 --> 00:37:19,780
have discussions then I think there's no

837
00:37:23,310 --> 00:37:21,530
reason for us not used

838
00:37:26,260 --> 00:37:23,320
the best tools we have to avoid

839
00:37:27,190 --> 00:37:26,270
self-deception to avoid making no

840
00:37:30,040 --> 00:37:27,200
mistakes

841
00:37:33,010 --> 00:37:30,050
okay okay I'm not sure I can let you off

842
00:37:36,280 --> 00:37:33,020
the hook on that one I'm gonna pick this

843
00:37:40,060 --> 00:37:36,290
topic I've titled it yogi and it's

844
00:37:43,090 --> 00:37:40,070
really non-duality as well you're pretty

845
00:37:44,590 --> 00:37:43,100
well plugged into the non-dual community

846
00:37:47,080 --> 00:37:44,600
you from at the science and non-duality

847
00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:47,090
conference you know this dick and you

848
00:37:51,250 --> 00:37:49,250
verb contributor keynote speaker there

849
00:37:53,710 --> 00:37:51,260
people love you there for good reason

850
00:37:58,030 --> 00:37:53,720
because you are approaching these topics

851
00:37:59,730 --> 00:37:58,040
in a brilliantly new way but at the same

852
00:38:04,390 --> 00:37:59,740
time there's a lot of very

853
00:38:07,090 --> 00:38:04,400
well-established wisdom that seems to

854
00:38:08,260 --> 00:38:07,100
kind of not totally square with what

855
00:38:12,700 --> 00:38:08,270
you're talking about and one of the

856
00:38:15,340 --> 00:38:12,710
problems I see is that spirituality as I

857
00:38:18,130 --> 00:38:15,350
understand it is particularly this non

858
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:18,140
dual understanding of spirituality is

859
00:38:23,790 --> 00:38:21,890
really about creating space between what

860
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:23,800
I guess we might call our habitual

861
00:38:29,950 --> 00:38:26,450
consciousness and this higher

862
00:38:32,370 --> 00:38:29,960
consciousness that resides inside of us

863
00:38:35,050 --> 00:38:32,380
and I don't have a mathematical equation

864
00:38:37,540 --> 00:38:35,060
for that but again I challenge this idea

865
00:38:39,570 --> 00:38:37,550
that you had before that experience kind

866
00:38:42,580 --> 00:38:39,580
of doesn't matter I think that's a very

867
00:38:43,780 --> 00:38:42,590
kind of narrows you that's not exactly

868
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:43,790
what you said so I don't want to put

869
00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:47,450
words in your mouth but I think we could

870
00:38:51,760 --> 00:38:49,370
turn that around and say experience is

871
00:38:54,520 --> 00:38:51,770
the only thing that matters and Yogi's

872
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:54,530
who have experienced and played with

873
00:38:58,720 --> 00:38:56,930
this consciousness idea for thousands of

874
00:39:00,460 --> 00:38:58,730
years they don't have any theorems but

875
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:00,470
they can prove it over and over again

876
00:39:04,750 --> 00:39:02,450
and have and that's why people have

877
00:39:06,250 --> 00:39:04,760
found this to be a meaningful way of

878
00:39:08,260 --> 00:39:06,260
doing it one of the things I had in the

879
00:39:11,500 --> 00:39:08,270
earlier slide is this idea that sums it

880
00:39:14,350 --> 00:39:11,510
up very quickly as we are not cannot be

881
00:39:17,560 --> 00:39:14,360
anything which we observe right we

882
00:39:19,180 --> 00:39:17,570
observe the computer screen we know that

883
00:39:20,590 --> 00:39:19,190
we are not the computer screen because

884
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:20,600
we're observing the computer screen we

885
00:39:25,110 --> 00:39:22,370
are the observer of the computer screen

886
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:25,120
and in the same way when we observe

887
00:39:31,000 --> 00:39:27,290
consciousness when we observe the

888
00:39:34,300 --> 00:39:31,010
habitual mind we know we are not the

889
00:39:37,150 --> 00:39:34,310
habitual mind and yet that

890
00:39:41,590 --> 00:39:37,160
habitual mind as well as the higher mind

891
00:39:44,830 --> 00:39:41,600
is residing in what we call

892
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:44,840
consciousness so let me share get a one

893
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:47,810
guy he's not exactly in this community

894
00:39:51,370 --> 00:39:49,490
but I think he does he's very popular

895
00:39:53,830 --> 00:39:51,380
and does a good job of kind of summing

896
00:39:56,020 --> 00:39:53,840
up some of these ideas Eckhart totally

897
00:39:58,090 --> 00:39:56,030
another person I really appreciate I

898
00:40:00,610 --> 00:39:58,100
think doesn't even better job is Michael

899
00:40:03,730 --> 00:40:00,620
singer Mickey singer of feathered soul

900
00:40:07,750 --> 00:40:03,740
but let me play this clip from Eckhart

901
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:07,760
Tolle and then we'll talk about non

902
00:40:16,200 --> 00:40:12,770
duality and the observer so you give up

903
00:40:21,000 --> 00:40:16,210
all knowing the accumulated knowledge

904
00:40:26,050 --> 00:40:21,010
and mind mate itself that consists of

905
00:40:30,240 --> 00:40:26,060
accumulated thought forms so as we sit

906
00:40:35,160 --> 00:40:30,250
here we are dying little death and

907
00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:35,170
realize that nothing real actually died

908
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:41,930
only the illusion of a false self what

909
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:49,370
remains is consciousness the very bare

910
00:40:56,950 --> 00:40:54,170
fact that you are so in this moment is

911
00:41:00,160 --> 00:40:56,960
the opportunity of sensing something

912
00:41:04,690 --> 00:41:00,170
much more fundamental than the history

913
00:41:09,250 --> 00:41:04,700
of who you think you are in the mind my

914
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:09,260
past your sense of identity but who are

915
00:41:18,100 --> 00:41:10,330
you really

916
00:41:20,260 --> 00:41:18,110
beyond the story I think a lot of folks

917
00:41:23,080 --> 00:41:20,270
in the spiritual community will relate

918
00:41:27,670 --> 00:41:23,090
with that question who are you really

919
00:41:30,970 --> 00:41:27,680
beyond the story and I just can't quite

920
00:41:34,660 --> 00:41:30,980
connect that hierarchy if you will that

921
00:41:36,810 --> 00:41:34,670
he's pointing to with your theory so

922
00:41:40,300 --> 00:41:36,820
let's jump in there and talk about that

923
00:41:42,310 --> 00:41:40,310
yes I like Eckhart Tolle his ideas very

924
00:41:45,490 --> 00:41:42,320
much I've listened to a number of his

925
00:41:47,740 --> 00:41:45,500
his talks and I do agree that

926
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:47,750
consciousness is the fundamental

927
00:41:53,050 --> 00:41:50,810
and that it transcends any of our

928
00:41:55,770 --> 00:41:53,060
theories including my my own scientific

929
00:41:59,380 --> 00:41:55,780
theories my own mathematical models and

930
00:42:03,070 --> 00:41:59,390
that going into silence and letting go

931
00:42:04,359 --> 00:42:03,080
of our thoughts is and getting a direct

932
00:42:06,670 --> 00:42:04,369
connection with that conscious

933
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:06,680
experience is very very important I

934
00:42:13,630 --> 00:42:08,450
actually spend time every day in

935
00:42:14,859 --> 00:42:13,640
meditation doing exactly that and I

936
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:14,869
actually didn't reject your question

937
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:17,330
right there because I do too not so much

938
00:42:21,490 --> 00:42:19,130
because I don't know

939
00:42:23,859 --> 00:42:21,500
I think meditation is an ongoing process

940
00:42:28,089 --> 00:42:23,869
if we really kind of take it seriously

941
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:28,099
but in that moment what is going on as

942
00:42:32,830 --> 00:42:31,010
you would understand it or explain it in

943
00:42:34,980 --> 00:42:32,840
terms of your model and I think you get

944
00:42:37,810 --> 00:42:34,990
what I mean when you realize that

945
00:42:40,690 --> 00:42:37,820
separation between you and the habitual

946
00:42:43,060 --> 00:42:40,700
mind that is always that is doing the

947
00:42:45,700 --> 00:42:43,070
math that is doing the observation both

948
00:42:48,970 --> 00:42:45,710
good and bad not to kind of put down

949
00:42:52,690 --> 00:42:48,980
that habitual mind but when you are in

950
00:42:56,320 --> 00:42:52,700
that other space where are you in dr.

951
00:42:58,030 --> 00:42:56,330
Donald Hoffman's model well I'm a I'm a

952
00:43:01,780 --> 00:42:58,040
consciousness what I call a conscious

953
00:43:03,670 --> 00:43:01,790
agent and in effect in the meditation

954
00:43:07,650 --> 00:43:03,680
process when you're letting go of your

955
00:43:10,450 --> 00:43:07,660
thoughts and emotions and so forth

956
00:43:13,480 --> 00:43:10,460
you're in some sense letting go of your

957
00:43:15,609 --> 00:43:13,490
interface instead of having this virtual

958
00:43:18,579 --> 00:43:15,619
headset on by which you're interacting

959
00:43:21,310 --> 00:43:18,589
with the reality of consciousness you're

960
00:43:23,410 --> 00:43:21,320
slowly learning to let go of that and

961
00:43:26,440 --> 00:43:23,420
appreciate consciousness on its own

962
00:43:28,420 --> 00:43:26,450
terms to be be the consciousness and be

963
00:43:30,700 --> 00:43:28,430
aware of the consciousness and I think

964
00:43:32,550 --> 00:43:30,710
that there are fundamental limitations

965
00:43:35,050 --> 00:43:32,560
to mathematics and what it can model

966
00:43:37,060 --> 00:43:35,060
that comes out of I believe something

967
00:43:40,270 --> 00:43:37,070
called girdle's theorem it's it's the

968
00:43:43,089 --> 00:43:40,280
mathematics itself and girdles theorem

969
00:43:47,170 --> 00:43:43,099
that makes me think that no scientific

970
00:43:48,940 --> 00:43:47,180
theory can ever be truly fundamental in

971
00:43:51,240 --> 00:43:48,950
the sense that every scientific theory

972
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:51,250
always has to have certain assumptions

973
00:43:55,390 --> 00:43:53,690
incompleteness right that's right it's

974
00:43:58,690 --> 00:43:55,400
all it's always going to be incomplete

975
00:44:01,660 --> 00:43:58,700
and and might my take on girdles theorem

976
00:44:04,319 --> 00:44:01,670
is it says that

977
00:44:06,819 --> 00:44:04,329
the quest for mathematical models is

978
00:44:09,549 --> 00:44:06,829
never-ending and it will never

979
00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:09,559
fundamentally reach the bottom there

980
00:44:15,190 --> 00:44:11,690
will always be the deeper reality that

981
00:44:17,319 --> 00:44:15,200
goes beyond any mathematical quest so

982
00:44:20,950 --> 00:44:17,329
but so the question that we have as

983
00:44:23,500 --> 00:44:20,960
human beings is we can again this goes

984
00:44:27,599 --> 00:44:23,510
back to the silence versus non silence

985
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:27,609
issue if we as Eckhart patola was

986
00:44:33,039 --> 00:44:30,170
encouraging us in that meditative peace

987
00:44:35,170 --> 00:44:33,049
if we let go of all of our models and

988
00:44:37,120 --> 00:44:35,180
mathematics and go into the silence we

989
00:44:40,089 --> 00:44:37,130
are approaching facing that reality

990
00:44:41,710 --> 00:44:40,099
without the screen of mathematics or

991
00:44:44,799 --> 00:44:41,720
ideas and so forth and I think that's

992
00:44:47,549 --> 00:44:44,809
very legitimate but in our everyday life

993
00:44:52,049 --> 00:44:47,559
we do talk we're doing it right now and

994
00:44:55,089 --> 00:44:52,059
so my attitude is if we're going to talk

995
00:44:57,670 --> 00:44:55,099
then let's be as precise as we possibly

996
00:44:59,769 --> 00:44:57,680
can let's not BS ourselves let's be as

997
00:45:01,539 --> 00:44:59,779
absolutely because we don't want to spin

998
00:45:03,910 --> 00:45:01,549
around and in silly circles for

999
00:45:05,829 --> 00:45:03,920
thousands of years and and I do believe

1000
00:45:07,390 --> 00:45:05,839
that there are as you point out many

1001
00:45:09,130 --> 00:45:07,400
deep insights from spiritual

1002
00:45:11,230 --> 00:45:09,140
practitioners and spiritual traditions

1003
00:45:13,630 --> 00:45:11,240
over thousands of years but they're not

1004
00:45:15,339 --> 00:45:13,640
infallible and the question is how do we

1005
00:45:17,019 --> 00:45:15,349
find out what are the genuine insights

1006
00:45:18,460 --> 00:45:17,029
and how do we find out what is the

1007
00:45:20,319 --> 00:45:18,470
nonsense and there's always going to be

1008
00:45:22,870 --> 00:45:20,329
nonsense and again I think it's the

1009
00:45:24,370 --> 00:45:22,880
precision so I absolutely agree if

1010
00:45:27,640 --> 00:45:24,380
someone doesn't want to do the

1011
00:45:30,549 --> 00:45:27,650
mathematics at all and just wants to be

1012
00:45:34,319 --> 00:45:30,559
silent I'm I'm on board but if we're

1013
00:45:39,220 --> 00:45:34,329
gonna talk at all that I say be precise

1014
00:45:40,809 --> 00:45:39,230
I love it I love the passion there where

1015
00:45:43,180 --> 00:45:40,819
should we go next I'm gonna suggest one

1016
00:45:46,089 --> 00:45:43,190
or two either ISM where we have a little

1017
00:45:49,150 --> 00:45:46,099
guests present guests question about

1018
00:45:52,089 --> 00:45:49,160
your theory further or we can jump into

1019
00:45:53,620 --> 00:45:52,099
the spiritual path that you were just

1020
00:45:57,730 --> 00:45:53,630
talking I'll let you pick this time

1021
00:45:59,769 --> 00:45:57,740
let's push through to the spiritual path

1022
00:46:02,769 --> 00:45:59,779
since we were just talking about that

1023
00:46:05,349 --> 00:46:02,779
because you know one of the things I did

1024
00:46:08,259 --> 00:46:05,359
when I was preparing for this show is I

1025
00:46:11,259 --> 00:46:08,269
kind of looked up anything I could find

1026
00:46:13,269 --> 00:46:11,269
on your understanding of spirituality

1027
00:46:13,829 --> 00:46:13,279
and I found an interesting article that

1028
00:46:16,140 --> 00:46:13,839
you wrote

1029
00:46:20,009 --> 00:46:16,150
while back I think it was titled

1030
00:46:23,789 --> 00:46:20,019
dismissing God right in which you

1031
00:46:27,690 --> 00:46:23,799
explain how your discoveries don't prove

1032
00:46:31,200 --> 00:46:27,700
God but kind of deal a death blow to

1033
00:46:33,870 --> 00:46:31,210
some of the common explanations for why

1034
00:46:35,339 --> 00:46:33,880
there never could be any God so I

1035
00:46:37,589 --> 00:46:35,349
thought that was really interesting and

1036
00:46:40,170 --> 00:46:37,599
you might talk about that but then more

1037
00:46:44,249 --> 00:46:40,180
importantly I'd like to know more about

1038
00:46:47,299 --> 00:46:44,259
what your spiritual path is of your

1039
00:46:50,190 --> 00:46:47,309
understanding spirituality why you do

1040
00:46:52,319 --> 00:46:50,200
meditate what you think is the you know

1041
00:46:55,529 --> 00:46:52,329
you mentioned the map and the territory

1042
00:46:57,269 --> 00:46:55,539
thing yes maybe what is the territory so

1043
00:46:59,999 --> 00:46:57,279
a bunch of questions bundles are there

1044
00:47:00,989 --> 00:47:00,009
start where you like well it's all just

1045
00:47:05,279 --> 00:47:00,999
a little bit about my own personal

1046
00:47:08,519 --> 00:47:05,289
history my my father was a Christian

1047
00:47:11,609 --> 00:47:08,529
fundamentalist minister and so I was

1048
00:47:14,819 --> 00:47:11,619
raised for for a couple decades you know

1049
00:47:17,309 --> 00:47:14,829
in that and so it's very very narrow

1050
00:47:20,849 --> 00:47:17,319
it's it's my way or the highway kind of

1051
00:47:24,870 --> 00:47:20,859
view if you you turn or burn believe for

1052
00:47:26,430 --> 00:47:24,880
go to hell and and meditation was

1053
00:47:28,799 --> 00:47:26,440
definitely not something that was

1054
00:47:30,690 --> 00:47:28,809
encouraged if you meditated it opened

1055
00:47:34,499 --> 00:47:30,700
you up to the devil and who knows what

1056
00:47:39,329 --> 00:47:34,509
would happen so it was um it was it was

1057
00:47:42,620 --> 00:47:39,339
an interesting experience and I'm in

1058
00:47:47,059 --> 00:47:42,630
recovery from it I mean it it did it was

1059
00:47:50,519 --> 00:47:47,069
it's a kind of spirituality but but it's

1060
00:47:52,410 --> 00:47:50,529
you know when you're saying that I take

1061
00:47:53,489 --> 00:47:52,420
what you just said literally and I'm

1062
00:47:56,519 --> 00:47:53,499
glad that you said that

1063
00:47:59,009 --> 00:47:56,529
I mean it's maybe you want to even go

1064
00:48:00,569 --> 00:47:59,019
there a little bit because you one could

1065
00:48:02,219 --> 00:48:00,579
make the case and I have in the show

1066
00:48:05,219 --> 00:48:02,229
when I got some more guests coming up

1067
00:48:08,039 --> 00:48:05,229
that the cultish practices that go hand

1068
00:48:11,450 --> 00:48:08,049
in hand with Christianity really need to

1069
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:11,460
be viewed from for their mind control

1070
00:48:15,749 --> 00:48:14,410
aspects and that's not judging it

1071
00:48:17,400 --> 00:48:15,759
anymore that we have a lot of things in

1072
00:48:19,229 --> 00:48:17,410
our society that are based on mind

1073
00:48:21,539 --> 00:48:19,239
control techniques or just stumble into

1074
00:48:24,170 --> 00:48:21,549
it but the the fact that we're doing

1075
00:48:25,590 --> 00:48:24,180
that to kids especially is not exactly

1076
00:48:28,260 --> 00:48:25,600
promoting

1077
00:48:29,730 --> 00:48:28,270
free-thinking and the deep programming

1078
00:48:32,310 --> 00:48:29,740
from that I know from my own experience

1079
00:48:34,410 --> 00:48:32,320
being brought up in the Greek Orthodox

1080
00:48:37,470 --> 00:48:34,420
Church and having to walk up to

1081
00:48:41,310 --> 00:48:37,480
communion and kiss the hand of some old

1082
00:48:43,650 --> 00:48:41,320
man as he dropped bread into my hand to

1083
00:48:45,660 --> 00:48:43,660
feed me I mean there's some deep

1084
00:48:48,750 --> 00:48:45,670
symbology there that I think a lot of

1085
00:48:51,780 --> 00:48:48,760
people can understand that there is for

1086
00:48:53,940 --> 00:48:51,790
a lot of folks genuine deep programming

1087
00:48:56,370 --> 00:48:53,950
there's no other way to say it then to

1088
00:48:59,430 --> 00:48:56,380
discover whatever your real underlying

1089
00:49:00,780 --> 00:48:59,440
true spiritual understanding is for

1090
00:49:03,060 --> 00:49:00,790
yourself I've gone on there for a while

1091
00:49:05,040 --> 00:49:03,070
but I would like you to maybe speak to

1092
00:49:06,900 --> 00:49:05,050
that before we jump off that topic well

1093
00:49:09,420 --> 00:49:06,910
I agree with you completely on that I I

1094
00:49:11,940 --> 00:49:09,430
felt that the the institutions that I

1095
00:49:14,640 --> 00:49:11,950
was subjected to were there not to help

1096
00:49:16,530 --> 00:49:14,650
me to explore and find out who I am they

1097
00:49:18,870 --> 00:49:16,540
had the answers I needed to understand

1098
00:49:21,150 --> 00:49:18,880
their answers and and and believed their

1099
00:49:24,450 --> 00:49:21,160
answers and to question anything that

1100
00:49:26,970 --> 00:49:24,460
they said was to not be a believer and

1101
00:49:29,070 --> 00:49:26,980
therefore be subject to hell and so it

1102
00:49:31,650 --> 00:49:29,080
really is a mind-control thing that goes

1103
00:49:34,290 --> 00:49:31,660
deep into your limbic system and gets

1104
00:49:38,250 --> 00:49:34,300
you at your emotions if I dare question

1105
00:49:41,130 --> 00:49:38,260
and think for myself and and think

1106
00:49:43,410 --> 00:49:41,140
outside of this little box the flames of

1107
00:49:46,350 --> 00:49:43,420
hell are right there and so and when

1108
00:49:48,300 --> 00:49:46,360
you're young you're defenseless against

1109
00:49:49,860 --> 00:49:48,310
that that mean you adults are telling

1110
00:49:52,620 --> 00:49:49,870
you that you believe it so it really

1111
00:49:54,630 --> 00:49:52,630
gets wired into your emotional system so

1112
00:49:56,970 --> 00:49:54,640
it's taken me a long time to deprogram

1113
00:49:59,310 --> 00:49:56,980
myself I mean knowing it intellectually

1114
00:50:02,550 --> 00:49:59,320
of course it didn't take that hard but

1115
00:50:05,070 --> 00:50:02,560
but deprogramming emotionally is a very

1116
00:50:07,230 --> 00:50:05,080
very different thing and so so I've had

1117
00:50:10,740 --> 00:50:07,240
to let let go of that programming and

1118
00:50:12,240 --> 00:50:10,750
one thing that I do is I do meditate and

1119
00:50:14,670 --> 00:50:12,250
part of the meditation is letting go of

1120
00:50:18,420 --> 00:50:14,680
that programming I mean I by being in

1121
00:50:20,250 --> 00:50:18,430
silence I'm facing the all the fears

1122
00:50:22,680 --> 00:50:20,260
that were programmed into me and the

1123
00:50:24,210 --> 00:50:22,690
anxieties and so forth and realizing

1124
00:50:27,660 --> 00:50:24,220
that you know even though intellectually

1125
00:50:30,150 --> 00:50:27,670
understand that that that was wrong it's

1126
00:50:31,860 --> 00:50:30,160
emotionally I have to understand it

1127
00:50:34,500 --> 00:50:31,870
deeper at a deep emotional level and let

1128
00:50:36,300 --> 00:50:34,510
that healing take place and so I do

1129
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:36,310
spend time every day I have for the last

1130
00:50:40,180 --> 00:50:37,970
17 years I'm

1131
00:50:42,849 --> 00:50:40,190
quite a bit of time in in silent

1132
00:50:46,359 --> 00:50:42,859
meditation where there's no specific

1133
00:50:49,089 --> 00:50:46,369
rules of pose or breathing or anything

1134
00:50:51,460 --> 00:50:49,099
like that is just silence and letting

1135
00:50:53,589 --> 00:50:51,470
whatever comes up come up and then

1136
00:50:55,089 --> 00:50:53,599
letting it go so it's really letting go

1137
00:50:59,500 --> 00:50:55,099
of my models letting go of my math

1138
00:51:02,440 --> 00:50:59,510
letting go of all that stuff being naked

1139
00:51:04,900 --> 00:51:02,450
to reality without my models without my

1140
00:51:06,640 --> 00:51:04,910
math and then during the day I go back

1141
00:51:08,890 --> 00:51:06,650
to my models in my mouth and and so

1142
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:08,900
being in both worlds it's really quite

1143
00:51:13,330 --> 00:51:11,210
it's it's very interesting being a human

1144
00:51:16,210 --> 00:51:13,340
being because both seem to be an

1145
00:51:19,720 --> 00:51:16,220
essential part of the human experience

1146
00:51:23,020 --> 00:51:19,730
the silence my being myself without any

1147
00:51:25,300 --> 00:51:23,030
models of myself and not knowing going

1148
00:51:29,109 --> 00:51:25,310
as a carto likes to go beyond knowing

1149
00:51:32,470 --> 00:51:29,119
into unknowing that seems to be really

1150
00:51:36,250 --> 00:51:32,480
critical and then going back into the

1151
00:51:38,550 --> 00:51:36,260
knowledge space and and somehow in a way

1152
00:51:40,870 --> 00:51:38,560
that I don't deeply understand yet that

1153
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:40,880
going back and forth between the two is

1154
00:51:46,240 --> 00:51:43,010
is part of what it means to be human as

1155
00:51:47,290 --> 00:51:46,250
part of our growth experience I also see

1156
00:51:49,420 --> 00:51:47,300
it by the way I'll just mention this

1157
00:51:50,650 --> 00:51:49,430
it's there maybe an analogy with

1158
00:51:53,829 --> 00:51:50,660
something that we see in quantum

1159
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:53,839
computation in quantum computation on

1160
00:51:58,060 --> 00:51:55,970
one hand you have to be very very

1161
00:51:59,800 --> 00:51:58,070
precise mathematically rigorously

1162
00:52:01,480 --> 00:51:59,810
precise engineering precise to set up

1163
00:52:03,700 --> 00:52:01,490
the quantum bits and quantum gates and

1164
00:52:05,560 --> 00:52:03,710
so forth that says like the most

1165
00:52:07,270 --> 00:52:05,570
advanced science of mathematics but then

1166
00:52:10,660 --> 00:52:07,280
when you start the computation you

1167
00:52:14,440 --> 00:52:10,670
cannot look you if you touch that at all

1168
00:52:16,480 --> 00:52:14,450
you destroy the power and so we have

1169
00:52:18,300 --> 00:52:16,490
this thing in quantum computation words

1170
00:52:20,650 --> 00:52:18,310
again a yin and yang kind of thing we're

1171
00:52:22,120 --> 00:52:20,660
absolute rigor on one hand and then you

1172
00:52:23,829 --> 00:52:22,130
cannot look at all you have to let go

1173
00:52:26,650 --> 00:52:23,839
completely and when you let go

1174
00:52:29,530 --> 00:52:26,660
completely you unleash this incredible

1175
00:52:31,720 --> 00:52:29,540
power that we don't understand and then

1176
00:52:33,550 --> 00:52:31,730
at the end you can go back to the math

1177
00:52:35,859 --> 00:52:33,560
and the registers and so forth and get a

1178
00:52:38,650 --> 00:52:35,869
thimbleful of that that incredible power

1179
00:52:41,310 --> 00:52:38,660
that was unleashed and so the reality is

1180
00:52:44,339 --> 00:52:41,320
telling us something that that don't get

1181
00:52:47,470 --> 00:52:44,349
addicted just to the math and models

1182
00:52:49,540 --> 00:52:47,480
don't be there's no payoff for sloppy

1183
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:49,550
thinking so just sloppy thinking that

1184
00:52:53,860 --> 00:52:51,530
that's just there's no payoff for that

1185
00:52:55,390 --> 00:52:53,870
we just get into dogmatic disputes and

1186
00:52:57,640 --> 00:52:55,400
hate each other and fight that death

1187
00:52:59,410 --> 00:52:57,650
there's nothing there but absolute

1188
00:53:01,480 --> 00:52:59,420
precision on the one hand trying to be

1189
00:53:03,130 --> 00:53:01,490
as precise as we can and then absolute

1190
00:53:05,560 --> 00:53:03,140
silence on the other hand seem to go

1191
00:53:07,720 --> 00:53:05,570
hand-in-hand as unleashing something

1192
00:53:09,400 --> 00:53:07,730
deeply powerful in us and in the

1193
00:53:13,000 --> 00:53:09,410
universe and so I'm very interested in

1194
00:53:15,820 --> 00:53:13,010
that awesome stuff do you want to talk

1195
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:15,830
for a minute about dismissing God I

1196
00:53:18,100 --> 00:53:16,850
thought there was some kind of

1197
00:53:20,980 --> 00:53:18,110
interesting points in there that

1198
00:53:26,050 --> 00:53:20,990
especially our atheistic kind of friends

1199
00:53:28,060 --> 00:53:26,060
might be surprised about right so many

1200
00:53:30,130 --> 00:53:28,070
of my colleagues will just say that that

1201
00:53:32,530 --> 00:53:30,140
there is no God because we have a

1202
00:53:34,420 --> 00:53:32,540
completely adequate space-time

1203
00:53:36,250 --> 00:53:34,430
physicalist framework that can answer

1204
00:53:38,440 --> 00:53:36,260
all all of the questions and when we

1205
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:38,450
when we go out into outer space you know

1206
00:53:41,890 --> 00:53:40,490
look around we don't see God you know

1207
00:53:43,300 --> 00:53:41,900
there was a cosmonaut who went out there

1208
00:53:48,010 --> 00:53:43,310
and I don't know I don't see anything

1209
00:53:50,980 --> 00:53:48,020
out here and so forth and many of my

1210
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:50,990
colleagues have a view about God is the

1211
00:53:56,830 --> 00:53:55,010
god of the gaps so as so God used to God

1212
00:54:00,370 --> 00:53:56,840
fills in where science doesn't have an

1213
00:54:03,610 --> 00:54:00,380
explanation but you know so you know but

1214
00:54:06,010 --> 00:54:03,620
as science progresses I just interject

1215
00:54:08,710 --> 00:54:06,020
with the related quote that I often hear

1216
00:54:13,720 --> 00:54:08,720
from atheists and that is that I don't

1217
00:54:16,330 --> 00:54:13,730
need God to explain X and for our

1218
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:16,340
purposes we can say reality you know I

1219
00:54:22,030 --> 00:54:19,850
don't need God to explain reality and I

1220
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:22,040
think your theory kind of blows that off

1221
00:54:26,020 --> 00:54:24,290
the table right away says both oh you

1222
00:54:29,020 --> 00:54:26,030
have not explained reality in an

1223
00:54:34,540 --> 00:54:29,030
adequate way with your science as we

1224
00:54:36,540 --> 00:54:34,550
know it right the absolutely so they are

1225
00:54:39,540 --> 00:54:36,550
saying that the scientific explanations

1226
00:54:44,290 --> 00:54:39,550
as they advanced there's less room for

1227
00:54:47,950 --> 00:54:44,300
for God and the problem that they've got

1228
00:54:49,660 --> 00:54:47,960
is that as science advances it's only

1229
00:54:52,390 --> 00:54:49,670
become more and more clear that our

1230
00:54:54,250 --> 00:54:52,400
standard explanations cannot deal with

1231
00:54:56,680 --> 00:54:54,260
consciousness the thing that's most

1232
00:54:58,930 --> 00:54:56,690
important to us my feelings of emotions

1233
00:55:00,400 --> 00:54:58,940
the the taste of chocolate a headache

1234
00:55:02,290 --> 00:55:00,410
the feeling of velvet all these things

1235
00:55:03,820 --> 00:55:02,300
without which I wouldn't even really be

1236
00:55:05,080 --> 00:55:03,830
here I didn't have any experiences

1237
00:55:06,760 --> 00:55:05,090
there's not really

1238
00:55:09,490 --> 00:55:06,770
any sense in which I would exist and

1239
00:55:10,960 --> 00:55:09,500
that most central thing about us science

1240
00:55:14,050 --> 00:55:10,970
right now in his current physicalist

1241
00:55:16,360 --> 00:55:14,060
framework is woefully inadequate and

1242
00:55:19,900 --> 00:55:16,370
scientists are beginning to understand

1243
00:55:22,150 --> 00:55:19,910
that their mathematical models don't cut

1244
00:55:23,410 --> 00:55:22,160
the mustard here and that's that's the

1245
00:55:24,910 --> 00:55:23,420
power of the mathematics is there

1246
00:55:26,650 --> 00:55:24,920
they're being forced by their own

1247
00:55:28,840 --> 00:55:26,660
mathematics to say this doesn't work

1248
00:55:30,460 --> 00:55:28,850
this doesn't work and I'm helping them

1249
00:55:33,210 --> 00:55:30,470
you know I come along as a gadfly and

1250
00:55:38,290 --> 00:55:33,220
say see it doesn't work and so there is

1251
00:55:40,750 --> 00:55:38,300
if we're going to have an understanding

1252
00:55:41,740 --> 00:55:40,760
of consciousness we're not going to be

1253
00:55:43,210 --> 00:55:41,750
able to get it starting with a

1254
00:55:44,650 --> 00:55:43,220
physicalist framework it just won't

1255
00:55:47,260 --> 00:55:44,660
happen we're gonna have to let

1256
00:55:50,170 --> 00:55:47,270
consciousness be fundamental in our

1257
00:55:53,860 --> 00:55:50,180
theories and so now the word God itself

1258
00:55:55,870 --> 00:55:53,870
is a loaded word right everybody uses

1259
00:55:59,950 --> 00:55:55,880
the word but if you if you notice it's

1260
00:56:01,210 --> 00:55:59,960
never defined its or defined very very

1261
00:56:03,640 --> 00:56:01,220
loosely it's the infinite consciousness

1262
00:56:05,500 --> 00:56:03,650
or the consciousness that includes all

1263
00:56:08,650 --> 00:56:05,510
other consciousness or whatever it might

1264
00:56:13,270 --> 00:56:08,660
be yeah and and and maybe we're stuck

1265
00:56:15,240 --> 00:56:13,280
with that but as a scientist I've got

1266
00:56:18,580 --> 00:56:15,250
this theory of conscious agents and

1267
00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:18,590
conscious agents can be finite but when

1268
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:20,930
they interact conscious agents create

1269
00:56:24,990 --> 00:56:22,850
new conscious agents that can be more

1270
00:56:27,700 --> 00:56:25,000
complicated and the mathematics

1271
00:56:29,680 --> 00:56:27,710
indicates to me that this can go on to

1272
00:56:31,180 --> 00:56:29,690
infinity so I can actually have

1273
00:56:34,810 --> 00:56:31,190
conscious agents combining to create

1274
00:56:37,270 --> 00:56:34,820
infinite conscious agents so I'm

1275
00:56:40,180 --> 00:56:37,280
probably wrong of course I'm probably

1276
00:56:42,040 --> 00:56:40,190
wrong but I have and I've proposed a

1277
00:56:44,620 --> 00:56:42,050
mathematically precise definition of God

1278
00:56:46,180 --> 00:56:44,630
it's a conscious agent where I've given

1279
00:56:48,190 --> 00:56:46,190
a definition of a conscious agent that

1280
00:56:51,820 --> 00:56:48,200
has an infinite set of possible

1281
00:56:55,120 --> 00:56:51,830
conscious experiences well so so for the

1282
00:56:58,270 --> 00:56:55,130
first time that I know of we have a

1283
00:57:01,660 --> 00:56:58,280
proposal for a precise definition of God

1284
00:57:04,060 --> 00:57:01,670
and of course I'm probably wrong but the

1285
00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:04,070
point is to be precise so we can now

1286
00:57:09,310 --> 00:57:06,170
start the conversation where is it wrong

1287
00:57:11,140 --> 00:57:09,320
how is it wrong let's fix it and now we

1288
00:57:13,030 --> 00:57:11,150
can actually start to try to develop a

1289
00:57:15,820 --> 00:57:13,040
precise understanding of what we mean by

1290
00:57:18,610 --> 00:57:15,830
the letters g.od so that's what I'm I'm

1291
00:57:18,940 --> 00:57:18,620
very much interested it's also open to

1292
00:57:23,079 --> 00:57:18,950
some

1293
00:57:25,599 --> 00:57:23,089
to say it transcends any science and any

1294
00:57:28,720 --> 00:57:25,609
experience and any any description and

1295
00:57:30,430 --> 00:57:28,730
you can't go there and again if someone

1296
00:57:32,290 --> 00:57:30,440
says that I completely respect it but

1297
00:57:34,450 --> 00:57:32,300
that means then we're not gonna argue

1298
00:57:36,400 --> 00:57:34,460
back and forth about your god versus my

1299
00:57:38,170 --> 00:57:36,410
god and that my god is right and your

1300
00:57:42,520 --> 00:57:38,180
God is is wrong we're not going to do

1301
00:57:45,579 --> 00:57:42,530
that so so if we want to do the game of

1302
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:45,589
trying to get precise ideas about God we

1303
00:57:49,569 --> 00:57:47,570
need to go mathematical on it and we and

1304
00:57:52,660 --> 00:57:49,579
we we've never done that in human

1305
00:57:54,700 --> 00:57:52,670
history and until now so now for the

1306
00:57:57,490 --> 00:57:54,710
first time I can be wrong I'm the first

1307
00:57:59,020 --> 00:57:57,500
person to be wrong about God because I'm

1308
00:58:01,750 --> 00:57:59,030
being precise and so I'm probably

1309
00:58:03,370 --> 00:58:01,760
precisely wrong but that's how we start

1310
00:58:05,470 --> 00:58:03,380
the conversation the scientific

1311
00:58:08,980 --> 00:58:05,480
conversation and evolve the mathematics

1312
00:58:11,589 --> 00:58:08,990
but if someone says again that whole we

1313
00:58:14,680 --> 00:58:11,599
just need to be in silence I understand

1314
00:58:17,530 --> 00:58:14,690
that and I and I I respect that you

1315
00:58:21,880 --> 00:58:17,540
pronoun to that as they say hey let's

1316
00:58:23,380 --> 00:58:21,890
play our guest question from rich Greg

1317
00:58:26,809 --> 00:58:23,390
oh I think it's a good one we'll have

1318
00:58:31,459 --> 00:58:29,449
hello Alex and Donald Hoffman this is

1319
00:58:33,799 --> 00:58:31,469
rich Gregor philosophy faculty at

1320
00:58:36,499 --> 00:58:33,809
Florida State College and sometimes

1321
00:58:38,719 --> 00:58:36,509
skeptical contributor thanks so much for

1322
00:58:41,659 --> 00:58:38,729
the opportunity to present a quick query

1323
00:58:44,449 --> 00:58:41,669
that as an enthusiastic advocate of his

1324
00:58:46,880 --> 00:58:44,459
work in consciousness studies among

1325
00:58:49,969 --> 00:58:46,890
other things it would be great to hear

1326
00:58:53,229 --> 00:58:49,979
dr. Hoffman address what you think the

1327
00:58:56,630 --> 00:58:53,239
nature of consciousness actually is

1328
00:58:58,699 --> 00:58:56,640
beyond just as function as author of the

1329
00:59:01,549 --> 00:58:58,709
physical world that you've already

1330
00:59:05,569 --> 00:59:01,559
described so well in so many places is

1331
00:59:08,390 --> 00:59:05,579
it in itself realm of pure mathematical

1332
00:59:10,999 --> 00:59:08,400
equations as some current physicists

1333
00:59:12,499 --> 00:59:11,009
like Max tegmark comes to mind and and

1334
00:59:15,529 --> 00:59:12,509
other philosophers in the Platonic

1335
00:59:18,140 --> 00:59:15,539
tradition claim or is it a bunch of

1336
00:59:20,870 --> 00:59:18,150
individual centers of subjective

1337
00:59:23,929 --> 00:59:20,880
first-person personal awareness and

1338
00:59:26,929 --> 00:59:23,939
agency that collectively create the user

1339
00:59:29,599 --> 00:59:26,939
interface of physical realities maybe be

1340
00:59:31,370 --> 00:59:29,609
a mathematics or quantum level state

1341
00:59:34,549 --> 00:59:31,380
vector collapse or something like that

1342
00:59:38,630 --> 00:59:34,559
is some pan cyclists and guys like in

1343
00:59:41,179 --> 00:59:38,640
rows and Hameroff seem to suggest or is

1344
00:59:43,669 --> 00:59:41,189
it is consciousness some combination of

1345
00:59:46,640 --> 00:59:43,679
those two things maybe but under written

1346
00:59:49,489 --> 00:59:46,650
by an all-encompassing universal source

1347
00:59:52,569 --> 00:59:49,499
of consciousness awareness as more

1348
00:59:55,219 --> 00:59:52,579
idealistic philosophers of mind claim

1349
00:59:57,829 --> 00:59:55,229
bernardo cash drop and it tastes Xiaomi

1350
00:59:59,719 --> 00:59:57,839
and mera Albahari come from iemon

1351
01:00:02,299 --> 00:59:59,729
but basically I just like to get a

1352
01:00:04,729 --> 01:00:02,309
better description of consciousness in

1353
01:00:07,069 --> 01:00:04,739
itself beyond just its role in

1354
01:00:10,630 --> 01:00:07,079
generating a user interface thanks again

1355
01:00:13,339 --> 01:00:10,640
guys right great let's go there

1356
01:00:15,049 --> 01:00:13,349
great so first I think that

1357
01:00:16,519 --> 01:00:15,059
consciousness is not just mathematics

1358
01:00:18,799 --> 01:00:16,529
and that mathematics is not

1359
01:00:21,919 --> 01:00:18,809
consciousness so I'm not a reductionist

1360
01:00:25,339 --> 01:00:21,929
at all about about consciousness and in

1361
01:00:27,229 --> 01:00:25,349
fact even in in my the physicalist

1362
01:00:29,359 --> 01:00:27,239
theories the mathematics is just the

1363
01:00:31,339 --> 01:00:29,369
mathematics if your physic listen you

1364
01:00:33,319 --> 01:00:31,349
believe that the space time and matter

1365
01:00:36,140 --> 01:00:33,329
are objective real things the

1366
01:00:38,989 --> 01:00:36,150
mathematics only describes them it isn't

1367
01:00:40,670 --> 01:00:38,999
them now that they're I obviously am

1368
01:00:44,230 --> 01:00:40,680
disagreeing with Max tegmark

1369
01:00:46,940 --> 01:00:44,240
that mathematics is is the whole thing

1370
01:00:50,180 --> 01:00:46,950
now what's interesting is that

1371
01:00:51,770 --> 01:00:50,190
consciousness has been studied our

1372
01:00:55,069 --> 01:00:51,780
conscious experiences have been studied

1373
01:00:57,829 --> 01:00:55,079
by scientists for many many decades in a

1374
01:00:58,970 --> 01:00:57,839
field called psychophysics not a lot of

1375
01:01:00,319 --> 01:00:58,980
people know about the field of psycho

1376
01:01:03,380 --> 01:01:00,329
physics but this one of the fields that

1377
01:01:05,870 --> 01:01:03,390
I that I work in and what we found is

1378
01:01:10,099 --> 01:01:05,880
that we can predict with mathematical

1379
01:01:11,480 --> 01:01:10,109
precision your conscious experiences so

1380
01:01:13,520 --> 01:01:11,490
conscious experiences are not these

1381
01:01:15,349 --> 01:01:13,530
amorphous weird things that are

1382
01:01:18,020 --> 01:01:15,359
unpredictable we can actually write down

1383
01:01:19,910 --> 01:01:18,030
mathematical equations for example I can

1384
01:01:21,559 --> 01:01:19,920
write down an equation that says when

1385
01:01:23,270 --> 01:01:21,569
you see a bunch of moving dots on the

1386
01:01:24,829 --> 01:01:23,280
screen when all of a sudden they will

1387
01:01:27,680 --> 01:01:24,839
pop into 3d and you see them as a

1388
01:01:28,819 --> 01:01:27,690
3-dimensional sphere it turns out I can

1389
01:01:30,620 --> 01:01:28,829
predict that I can write down an

1390
01:01:34,280 --> 01:01:30,630
equation that the motion of the dots

1391
01:01:36,290 --> 01:01:34,290
must satisfy when when you actually see

1392
01:01:38,089 --> 01:01:36,300
the pop out in a new dimension of

1393
01:01:39,290 --> 01:01:38,099
conscious experience and there's there's

1394
01:01:43,010 --> 01:01:39,300
hundreds of things like that in

1395
01:01:46,640 --> 01:01:43,020
psychophysics in fact one reason why we

1396
01:01:48,530 --> 01:01:46,650
can build virtual reality simulations

1397
01:01:50,630 --> 01:01:48,540
that are so powerful is because we

1398
01:01:53,210 --> 01:01:50,640
understand with mathematical precision

1399
01:01:54,950 --> 01:01:53,220
how our consciousness works how our

1400
01:01:57,289 --> 01:01:54,960
conscious experiences of space and time

1401
01:01:59,240 --> 01:01:57,299
and colors and objects work and that's

1402
01:02:01,460 --> 01:01:59,250
why we can actually program virtual

1403
01:02:03,589 --> 01:02:01,470
reality machines to make you see any

1404
01:02:04,579 --> 01:02:03,599
worlds we want it's because of that

1405
01:02:09,109 --> 01:02:04,589
mathematical precision

1406
01:02:12,049 --> 01:02:09,119
but given that so mathematics is not

1407
01:02:13,670 --> 01:02:12,059
divorced from consciousness I think of

1408
01:02:15,049 --> 01:02:13,680
it Moore's like the bones of

1409
01:02:17,089 --> 01:02:15,059
consciousness consciousness is this

1410
01:02:19,370 --> 01:02:17,099
living thing but it has structure it has

1411
01:02:21,260 --> 01:02:19,380
bones and mathematics is sort of like

1412
01:02:22,970 --> 01:02:21,270
the structure of it so when I say the

1413
01:02:25,329 --> 01:02:22,980
consciousness is fundamental in the

1414
01:02:28,520 --> 01:02:25,339
universe I'm also saying I I believe

1415
01:02:30,440 --> 01:02:28,530
that mathematics is fundamental not that

1416
01:02:33,589 --> 01:02:30,450
consciousness arises from mathematics

1417
01:02:36,650 --> 01:02:33,599
but that is an integral part but not the

1418
01:02:38,990 --> 01:02:36,660
whole it's a part of consciousness and

1419
01:02:40,970 --> 01:02:39,000
conscious experiences so there really

1420
01:02:43,160 --> 01:02:40,980
wouldn't be any conflict if I'm

1421
01:02:44,839 --> 01:02:43,170
understanding you right between what

1422
01:02:47,839 --> 01:02:44,849
you're saying and let's say what

1423
01:02:50,530 --> 01:02:47,849
Bernardo is saying in terms of we are

1424
01:02:54,230 --> 01:02:50,540
rather than say we are in consciousness

1425
01:02:57,320 --> 01:02:54,240
so those experiences the models here

1426
01:03:00,080 --> 01:02:57,330
about and their predictions are in

1427
01:03:02,630 --> 01:03:00,090
consciousness I think that's part and

1428
01:03:04,730 --> 01:03:02,640
parcel with what you that doesn't really

1429
01:03:08,200 --> 01:03:04,740
conflict with what you're saying you're

1430
01:03:11,150 --> 01:03:08,210
just kind of pushing for more rigor in

1431
01:03:13,420 --> 01:03:11,160
understanding more and more that we can

1432
01:03:15,650 --> 01:03:13,430
about the structure of those bones

1433
01:03:17,270 --> 01:03:15,660
absolutely Bernardo and I are in broad

1434
01:03:20,420 --> 01:03:17,280
agreement and you know we know each

1435
01:03:23,240 --> 01:03:20,430
other and we were friends and I I would

1436
01:03:25,220 --> 01:03:23,250
say his idea that we're whirlpools and

1437
01:03:27,260 --> 01:03:25,230
ripples and in a bigger consciousness is

1438
01:03:29,120 --> 01:03:27,270
is a very very good metaphor for what

1439
01:03:31,010 --> 01:03:29,130
I'm talking about because in my model

1440
01:03:33,140 --> 01:03:31,020
there are all these there's infinitely

1441
01:03:35,270 --> 01:03:33,150
many of these finite conscious agents

1442
01:03:38,140 --> 01:03:35,280
that are interacting but they also form

1443
01:03:41,630 --> 01:03:38,150
various infinite conscious agents and

1444
01:03:43,070 --> 01:03:41,640
it's true both that there's one infinite

1445
01:03:44,990 --> 01:03:43,080
conscious agent and it's also true that

1446
01:03:46,970 --> 01:03:45,000
there's infinitely many finite conscious

1447
01:03:49,400 --> 01:03:46,980
ages and both are true in the

1448
01:03:51,200 --> 01:03:49,410
mathematics and and so I mission I mean

1449
01:03:56,150 --> 01:03:51,210
almost by Drake I mean that's right you

1450
01:03:58,010 --> 01:03:56,160
bet infinite that's right it gets it

1451
01:03:59,510 --> 01:03:58,020
gets pretty hairy but but what's nice is

1452
01:04:01,640 --> 01:03:59,520
that I can talk about the one

1453
01:04:03,770 --> 01:04:01,650
consciousness but then as a scientist

1454
01:04:05,270 --> 01:04:03,780
I've got this analytic framework to

1455
01:04:07,700 --> 01:04:05,280
actually look at the dynamics of the

1456
01:04:09,770 --> 01:04:07,710
internal structure of the one so I can

1457
01:04:12,380 --> 01:04:09,780
talk about the one but I don't then just

1458
01:04:14,030 --> 01:04:12,390
give up I can have a very very rich

1459
01:04:15,859 --> 01:04:14,040
mathematical model of the internal

1460
01:04:18,170 --> 01:04:15,869
dynamics of the one in terms of other

1461
01:04:20,480 --> 01:04:18,180
conscious agents so there's a lot of

1462
01:04:22,460 --> 01:04:20,490
mathematics to explore there and and

1463
01:04:24,170 --> 01:04:22,470
again I'm not reducing consciousness to

1464
01:04:27,050 --> 01:04:24,180
mathematics but I'm saying that

1465
01:04:28,730 --> 01:04:27,060
consciousness and mathematics are

1466
01:04:32,870 --> 01:04:28,740
intimately related almost like the

1467
01:04:35,510 --> 01:04:32,880
living organism to its bones great tell

1468
01:04:39,530 --> 01:04:35,520
you what this has been so awesome and

1469
01:04:42,440 --> 01:04:39,540
exciting for me I have one last category

1470
01:04:46,340 --> 01:04:42,450
for you if you will sure let's talk

1471
01:04:48,980 --> 01:04:46,350
about extended consciousness one of the

1472
01:04:52,250 --> 01:04:48,990
topics we've spent a lot of time

1473
01:04:54,530 --> 01:04:52,260
covering on this show literally hundreds

1474
01:04:56,480 --> 01:04:54,540
of episodes at this point so if we're

1475
01:04:58,849 --> 01:04:56,490
talking about near-death experience

1476
01:05:01,370 --> 01:04:58,859
science which now as you know there's

1477
01:05:05,000 --> 01:05:01,380
hundreds of peer review published papers

1478
01:05:07,030 --> 01:05:05,010
on it consciousness after bodily death

1479
01:05:09,160 --> 01:05:07,040
which we normally don't think of

1480
01:05:10,930 --> 01:05:09,170
in any of our models or any of our

1481
01:05:13,300 --> 01:05:10,940
understandings yet it seems to be a

1482
01:05:16,030 --> 01:05:13,310
reality kind of mentioned remote viewing

1483
01:05:17,170 --> 01:05:16,040
we also have out-of-body experience

1484
01:05:19,300 --> 01:05:17,180
again there's a little god of good

1485
01:05:21,820 --> 01:05:19,310
science there and even after death

1486
01:05:24,370 --> 01:05:21,830
communication I always point to dr.

1487
01:05:27,849 --> 01:05:24,380
Julie by she'll who's done excellent

1488
01:05:31,060 --> 01:05:27,859
peer-reviewed science on the reality

1489
01:05:32,770 --> 01:05:31,070
that after death communication happens

1490
01:05:35,340 --> 01:05:32,780
and then we even have you know our

1491
01:05:38,920 --> 01:05:35,350
friend Dean Radin who's gone from

1492
01:05:41,760 --> 01:05:38,930
rigorous double-slit experiments with

1493
01:05:44,770 --> 01:05:41,770
this little faux time machine and

1494
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:44,780
meditator to now of the last time users

1495
01:05:50,349 --> 01:05:46,810
on the show talking about spirits and

1496
01:05:54,160 --> 01:05:50,359
how spirits might manifest into our

1497
01:05:56,650 --> 01:05:54,170
physical reality which i think is a very

1498
01:05:59,050 --> 01:05:56,660
challenging notion for all these ideas

1499
01:06:01,030 --> 01:05:59,060
that we're talking about so you get a

1500
01:06:02,349 --> 01:06:01,040
sense where I'm going and I also have et

1501
01:06:03,940 --> 01:06:02,359
in there and I don't want to leave et

1502
01:06:07,210 --> 01:06:03,950
off the table because just because

1503
01:06:09,700 --> 01:06:07,220
people are uncomfortable with it I just

1504
01:06:13,380 --> 01:06:09,710
like I say I only believe what the New

1505
01:06:19,050 --> 01:06:13,390
York Times tells me and since December

1506
01:06:24,070 --> 01:06:19,060
2017 with the release of the DoD

1507
01:06:27,310 --> 01:06:24,080
certified flying saucers UFO driven

1508
01:06:30,099 --> 01:06:27,320
craft I now feel justified in bringing

1509
01:06:32,500 --> 01:06:30,109
data as a serious topic but I don't want

1510
01:06:35,890 --> 01:06:32,510
to go too far down that digression the

1511
01:06:38,710 --> 01:06:35,900
point is there does seem to be a reality

1512
01:06:41,940 --> 01:06:38,720
to these extended consciousness realms

1513
01:06:45,340 --> 01:06:41,950
how do we fit those back into your model

1514
01:06:48,370 --> 01:06:45,350
that's right so there's a lot to say

1515
01:06:51,190 --> 01:06:48,380
here things like the out-of-body

1516
01:06:54,240 --> 01:06:51,200
experiences are interesting because we

1517
01:06:56,770 --> 01:06:54,250
can induce them at will now if I take a

1518
01:06:59,109 --> 01:06:56,780
transcranial magnetic stimulator a TMS

1519
01:07:02,050 --> 01:06:59,119
unit and touch it to the right temporal

1520
01:07:04,599 --> 01:07:02,060
parietal Junction and inhibit you will

1521
01:07:07,200 --> 01:07:04,609
have an out-of-body experience so so we

1522
01:07:13,359 --> 01:07:07,210
now know how to induce those at will

1523
01:07:17,310 --> 01:07:13,369
with with a magnet and so the question

1524
01:07:20,140 --> 01:07:17,320
about these paranormal phenomena and

1525
01:07:22,380 --> 01:07:20,150
psychic experiences if you're a

1526
01:07:24,640 --> 01:07:22,390
physicalist there's no room for it right

1527
01:07:26,140 --> 01:07:24,650
space time and matter are fundamental

1528
01:07:29,460 --> 01:07:26,150
there is no consciousness outside of

1529
01:07:31,780 --> 01:07:29,470
space and time so they're pretty much

1530
01:07:33,460 --> 01:07:31,790
required to reject all this and so most

1531
01:07:37,480 --> 01:07:33,470
of my colleagues reject this stuff out

1532
01:07:39,070 --> 01:07:37,490
of hand now my framework absolutely

1533
01:07:41,980 --> 01:07:39,080
allows it I'm saying that space-time

1534
01:07:43,900 --> 01:07:41,990
that the objective reality is a vast

1535
01:07:46,000 --> 01:07:43,910
social network of interacting conscious

1536
01:07:47,200 --> 01:07:46,010
agents think like the Twitterverse so

1537
01:07:48,609 --> 01:07:47,210
there's all these conscious agents

1538
01:07:50,140 --> 01:07:48,619
interacting they're tweeting and

1539
01:07:52,060 --> 01:07:50,150
following and they're communicating with

1540
01:07:55,090 --> 01:07:52,070
each other and what we call space and

1541
01:07:57,310 --> 01:07:55,100
time is just our visualization tool that

1542
01:07:58,990 --> 01:07:57,320
allows us to understand this vast social

1543
01:08:01,900 --> 01:07:59,000
network that would be too overwhelming

1544
01:08:04,510 --> 01:08:01,910
without the visualization tool so so

1545
01:08:08,650 --> 01:08:04,520
there's lots going on on outside space

1546
01:08:11,070 --> 01:08:08,660
and time that that is not stuck in space

1547
01:08:13,240 --> 01:08:11,080
and time and so these kinds of you know

1548
01:08:16,090 --> 01:08:13,250
paranormal phenomena are absolutely

1549
01:08:22,829 --> 01:08:16,100
allowed but but here's the here's the

1550
01:08:24,670 --> 01:08:22,839
thing most of my friends and I'm again I

1551
01:08:26,320 --> 01:08:24,680
go to the science and non-duality

1552
01:08:28,180 --> 01:08:26,330
conference I'm friends with with many

1553
01:08:29,950 --> 01:08:28,190
people doing this work most of my

1554
01:08:32,410 --> 01:08:29,960
friends who are doing the kinds of

1555
01:08:35,019 --> 01:08:32,420
paranormal experiments have a view like

1556
01:08:37,030 --> 01:08:35,029
this that that the fundamental reality

1557
01:08:39,280 --> 01:08:37,040
does have space and time and physical

1558
01:08:40,620 --> 01:08:39,290
stuff but in addition to this physical

1559
01:08:43,329 --> 01:08:40,630
reality there's a ghost in the machine

1560
01:08:45,160 --> 01:08:43,339
now that's a fairly it's a fairly wimpy

1561
01:08:46,539 --> 01:08:45,170
ghost it doesn't have very very strong

1562
01:08:49,180 --> 01:08:46,549
muscles so you have to do long

1563
01:08:51,070 --> 01:08:49,190
experiments with and and and then you

1564
01:08:52,749 --> 01:08:51,080
find something that's its second or

1565
01:08:54,700 --> 01:08:52,759
third decimal place effect if you do

1566
01:08:57,700 --> 01:08:54,710
hundreds and thousands of trials and so

1567
01:08:59,769 --> 01:08:57,710
forth and and so it's it's a dualist

1568
01:09:01,209 --> 01:08:59,779
kind of framework there's a the physical

1569
01:09:02,800 --> 01:09:01,219
world with this laws is doing most of

1570
01:09:04,660 --> 01:09:02,810
the heavy lifting but there is a ghost

1571
01:09:06,099 --> 01:09:04,670
and it can do you know one tenth of one

1572
01:09:08,620 --> 01:09:06,109
hundredth of a percent or something like

1573
01:09:11,890 --> 01:09:08,630
that in careful experiments my attitude

1574
01:09:14,019 --> 01:09:11,900
is very very different I don't need a

1575
01:09:17,709 --> 01:09:14,029
ghost in the machine consciousness is

1576
01:09:20,099 --> 01:09:17,719
everything and what I what we call space

1577
01:09:23,559 --> 01:09:20,109
and time and the laws of physics is

1578
01:09:25,749 --> 01:09:23,569
exactly how we perceive our interactions

1579
01:09:26,849 --> 01:09:25,759
with other conscious agents I don't need

1580
01:09:29,490 --> 01:09:26,859
any ghosts

1581
01:09:31,230 --> 01:09:29,500
in the machine every all the laws of

1582
01:09:33,870 --> 01:09:31,240
physics I'm going to I want to show that

1583
01:09:37,260 --> 01:09:33,880
all of the laws of physics are in fact a

1584
01:09:39,599 --> 01:09:37,270
projection of the laws of dynamics of

1585
01:09:40,950 --> 01:09:39,609
consciousness so we'll have this theory

1586
01:09:43,980 --> 01:09:40,960
of conscious agents that's the

1587
01:09:46,890 --> 01:09:43,990
fundamental conscious world and the

1588
01:09:49,110 --> 01:09:46,900
fundamental scientific theory when we

1589
01:09:52,230 --> 01:09:49,120
project it back into our interface we

1590
01:09:54,240 --> 01:09:52,240
will get all of general relativity

1591
01:09:56,070 --> 01:09:54,250
quantum field theory evolution by

1592
01:09:58,230 --> 01:09:56,080
natural selection we will realize that

1593
01:10:01,410 --> 01:09:58,240
we've just been seeing consciousness

1594
01:10:04,920 --> 01:10:01,420
through a visualization tool so if it

1595
01:10:07,740 --> 01:10:04,930
turned out that most of these paranormal

1596
01:10:08,430 --> 01:10:07,750
experiments are false that's no problem

1597
01:10:11,100 --> 01:10:08,440
for me

1598
01:10:13,890 --> 01:10:11,110
consciousness is still fundamental and I

1599
01:10:15,720 --> 01:10:13,900
don't need these results to be true to

1600
01:10:17,280 --> 01:10:15,730
have the deeper I'll still have this

1601
01:10:19,650 --> 01:10:17,290
deeper theory of conscious agents and

1602
01:10:21,660 --> 01:10:19,660
have the science that shows that by

1603
01:10:23,880 --> 01:10:21,670
projecting it into space and time we get

1604
01:10:25,500 --> 01:10:23,890
our current scientific theories so

1605
01:10:27,660 --> 01:10:25,510
that's that's where I've had it hold on

1606
01:10:29,580 --> 01:10:27,670
I mean I'm glad you're headed in that

1607
01:10:32,370 --> 01:10:29,590
direction and you make some great points

1608
01:10:35,310 --> 01:10:32,380
if that rigor is needed but I'm not sure

1609
01:10:37,650 --> 01:10:35,320
we're really hitting on all cylinders

1610
01:10:41,670 --> 01:10:37,660
there I mean okay through all science is

1611
01:10:44,280 --> 01:10:41,680
this process of observing and explaining

1612
01:10:46,290 --> 01:10:44,290
so there does need to be some observing

1613
01:10:48,300 --> 01:10:46,300
going on so your death experience

1614
01:10:52,010 --> 01:10:48,310
science if you will is at the beginning

1615
01:10:55,530 --> 01:10:52,020
stages of observing a phenomenon that

1616
01:10:57,360 --> 01:10:55,540
that we can begin describing so that we

1617
01:10:59,340 --> 01:10:57,370
could even start putting it we could

1618
01:11:02,280 --> 01:10:59,350
start testing some of the assumptions or

1619
01:11:05,580 --> 01:11:02,290
start crafting what those conscious

1620
01:11:09,660 --> 01:11:05,590
agents look like so I'm not sure that we

1621
01:11:12,180 --> 01:11:09,670
can really blow past that that quickly

1622
01:11:15,600 --> 01:11:12,190
especially when we look at how miserably

1623
01:11:19,140 --> 01:11:15,610
poor a job science as we know it has

1624
01:11:21,150 --> 01:11:19,150
done in and kind of dealing with some of

1625
01:11:24,780 --> 01:11:21,160
these fundamental meaning questions what

1626
01:11:27,810 --> 01:11:24,790
does it mean to survive bodily death

1627
01:11:29,910 --> 01:11:27,820
what does it mean to encounter these

1628
01:11:33,270 --> 01:11:29,920
other if you want to stick conscious

1629
01:11:36,360 --> 01:11:33,280
agents in it fine but what does it mean

1630
01:11:39,060 --> 01:11:36,370
to encounter the hierarchical nature of

1631
01:11:40,439 --> 01:11:39,070
conscious agents that is conscious

1632
01:11:44,219 --> 01:11:40,449
agents who can't

1633
01:11:46,830 --> 01:11:44,229
you your past your future and what it

1634
01:11:49,080 --> 01:11:46,840
means in a way that that kind of

1635
01:11:52,500 --> 01:11:49,090
transcends any experience you've ever

1636
01:11:54,899 --> 01:11:52,510
had in this existence so there are a lot

1637
01:11:57,239 --> 01:11:54,909
of territory there that we need to map

1638
01:12:02,129 --> 01:11:57,249
out absolutely I completely agree with

1639
01:12:04,469 --> 01:12:02,139
you and and in in my framework death is

1640
01:12:06,959 --> 01:12:04,479
not the end so think about this way

1641
01:12:09,509 --> 01:12:06,969
suppose that you go with some friends to

1642
01:12:11,370 --> 01:12:09,519
a virtual reality arcade to place a

1643
01:12:14,069 --> 01:12:11,380
virtual volleyball and you put on your

1644
01:12:15,479 --> 01:12:14,079
headset and bodysuit and and you you and

1645
01:12:18,419 --> 01:12:15,489
your friends find yourself immersed in a

1646
01:12:21,419 --> 01:12:18,429
virtual you know volleyball at the beach

1647
01:12:23,069 --> 01:12:21,429
so you see sand and net and palm trees

1648
01:12:24,270 --> 01:12:23,079
and you start playing volleyball for a

1649
01:12:26,640 --> 01:12:24,280
while then one of your friends you know

1650
01:12:28,589 --> 01:12:26,650
Joe says excuse me I'm thirsty I need to

1651
01:12:31,549 --> 01:12:28,599
get a drink he takes off his headset and

1652
01:12:34,589 --> 01:12:31,559
body suit and his avatar collapses

1653
01:12:36,029 --> 01:12:34,599
motionless on the sand well from the

1654
01:12:38,399 --> 01:12:36,039
point of view of the interface it looks

1655
01:12:39,660 --> 01:12:38,409
like he's dead but he just stepped out

1656
01:12:42,330 --> 01:12:39,670
of the interface he's he's just fine

1657
01:12:44,189 --> 01:12:42,340
he's getting a drink and by saying that

1658
01:12:46,350 --> 01:12:44,199
space time and what we call the physical

1659
01:12:50,250 --> 01:12:46,360
world is just our interface I'm saying

1660
01:12:52,589 --> 01:12:50,260
that when you die yeah your avatar is is

1661
01:12:54,000 --> 01:12:52,599
motionless from the point of view of the

1662
01:12:56,609 --> 01:12:54,010
interface you're you've unplugged from

1663
01:12:59,040 --> 01:12:56,619
the interface and but but that doesn't

1664
01:13:01,620 --> 01:12:59,050
mean that your consciousness is gone the

1665
01:13:03,689 --> 01:13:01,630
consciousness still survives and so this

1666
01:13:06,689 --> 01:13:03,699
the framework that I'm dealing with does

1667
01:13:08,729 --> 01:13:06,699
absolutely now the issue technical issue

1668
01:13:11,370 --> 01:13:08,739
for me will be what aspect of your

1669
01:13:13,890 --> 01:13:11,380
memories and your self-identity will

1670
01:13:17,069 --> 01:13:13,900
survive death the consciousness itself

1671
01:13:19,680 --> 01:13:17,079
clearly survives death how much of what

1672
01:13:21,449 --> 01:13:19,690
I call me and my history and my memory

1673
01:13:22,799 --> 01:13:21,459
of myself that I'm gonna be very

1674
01:13:25,229 --> 01:13:22,809
interested that's a technical question

1675
01:13:27,089 --> 01:13:25,239
for my model to try to work on but

1676
01:13:29,129 --> 01:13:27,099
that's the nice thing it's actually now

1677
01:13:30,419 --> 01:13:29,139
a scientific question for me to ask that

1678
01:13:32,009 --> 01:13:30,429
question

1679
01:13:33,500 --> 01:13:32,019
whereas in the physicalist framework

1680
01:13:37,649 --> 01:13:33,510
it's just off the table

1681
01:13:40,439 --> 01:13:37,659
well dr. Hoffman that's outstanding the

1682
01:13:43,549 --> 01:13:40,449
whole thing is just so exciting and I

1683
01:13:46,229 --> 01:13:43,559
love the way that you've kind of

1684
01:13:48,180 --> 01:13:46,239
reinvigorated science about these

1685
01:13:49,709 --> 01:13:48,190
important questions who are we why are

1686
01:13:51,719 --> 01:13:49,719
we here that's what science was supposed

1687
01:13:53,360 --> 01:13:51,729
to be about from the beginning anyway I

1688
01:13:56,480 --> 01:13:53,370
agree what

1689
01:13:59,230 --> 01:13:56,490
next where are you going with this new

1690
01:14:02,440 --> 01:13:59,240
books do presentations how do people

1691
01:14:06,410 --> 01:14:02,450
stay on top of what you're discovering

1692
01:14:08,390 --> 01:14:06,420
well I have a Twitter feed and I'm I try

1693
01:14:11,330 --> 01:14:08,400
to be good about putting stuff on the

1694
01:14:13,490 --> 01:14:11,340
Twitter feed I'm an academic and so I'm

1695
01:14:15,260 --> 01:14:13,500
not a social media guru but I do try to

1696
01:14:18,620 --> 01:14:15,270
put stuff on my Twitter feed one when it

1697
01:14:20,030 --> 01:14:18,630
comes up so it's at Donald D Hoffman at

1698
01:14:24,620 --> 01:14:20,040
Donald E Hoffman um

1699
01:14:26,300 --> 01:14:24,630
and where I'm going is I have a small

1700
01:14:29,300 --> 01:14:26,310
team of researchers that are very

1701
01:14:30,980 --> 01:14:29,310
talented and our goal is to really work

1702
01:14:34,690 --> 01:14:30,990
out the mathematics of this conscious

1703
01:14:37,010 --> 01:14:34,700
agent Network I want to understand and

1704
01:14:38,600 --> 01:14:37,020
study the dynamics actually build

1705
01:14:43,640 --> 01:14:38,610
dynamical systems of conscious agents

1706
01:14:45,740 --> 01:14:43,650
and ultimately show how that dynamics

1707
01:14:48,200 --> 01:14:45,750
when it gets projected back into space

1708
01:14:50,060 --> 01:14:48,210
and time gives us back the science that

1709
01:14:51,410 --> 01:14:50,070
we already know and love general

1710
01:14:53,390 --> 01:14:51,420
relativity quantum field theory and

1711
01:14:55,280 --> 01:14:53,400
evolution by natural selection I want to

1712
01:14:58,430 --> 01:14:55,290
show that those that science is a

1713
01:14:59,570 --> 01:14:58,440
projection of a deeper evolution of

1714
01:15:02,240 --> 01:14:59,580
consciousness that we can get

1715
01:15:03,710 --> 01:15:02,250
mathematically precise so that's by the

1716
01:15:05,120 --> 01:15:03,720
way that you know that's not going to be

1717
01:15:08,330 --> 01:15:05,130
just a year or two that mean we're

1718
01:15:09,590 --> 01:15:08,340
talking multi-decade effort here well if

1719
01:15:11,960 --> 01:15:09,600
they're what it's been absolutely

1720
01:15:15,170 --> 01:15:11,970
terrific having you on the show today

1721
01:15:16,880 --> 01:15:15,180
and I can congratulate you and just

1722
01:15:19,100 --> 01:15:16,890
thank you so much for joining me thank

1723
01:15:20,870 --> 01:15:19,110
you alex has been a great pleasure thank

1724
01:15:24,980 --> 01:15:20,880
you for the great questions and the

1725
01:15:27,380 --> 01:15:24,990
great pushback so after the interview I

1726
01:15:29,210 --> 01:15:27,390
called up my buddy Richard Greg Oh got

1727
01:15:32,260 --> 01:15:29,220
his thoughts on some of what we talked

1728
01:15:36,140 --> 01:15:32,270
about maybe you just want to introduce

1729
01:15:40,130 --> 01:15:36,150
yourself okay sure I'm rich Greg Oh a

1730
01:15:42,320 --> 01:15:40,140
faculty at Florida State College and I

1731
01:15:45,020 --> 01:15:42,330
am some time contributor to skeptical

1732
01:15:48,250 --> 01:15:45,030
we've had this kind of ongoing interest

1733
01:15:50,180 --> 01:15:48,260
in dialogue on parapsychology

1734
01:15:52,220 --> 01:15:50,190
consciousness and the crossover with

1735
01:15:55,190 --> 01:15:52,230
philosophy so I always kind of lean on

1736
01:15:58,970 --> 01:15:55,200
you when we get to these questions

1737
01:16:01,160 --> 01:15:58,980
because we just have a they have a lot

1738
01:16:02,990 --> 01:16:01,170
of fun and an interesting dialogue going

1739
01:16:05,150 --> 01:16:03,000
back and forth so when this thing came

1740
01:16:05,730 --> 01:16:05,160
up with Dan Hoffman the possibility

1741
01:16:08,910 --> 01:16:05,740
interview

1742
01:16:10,830 --> 01:16:08,920
you actually helped me reconnect with

1743
01:16:13,470 --> 01:16:10,840
Donna I had interviewed him a while back

1744
01:16:15,840 --> 01:16:13,480
and then set up this interview so that

1745
01:16:18,750 --> 01:16:15,850
that was really cool and I appreciate

1746
01:16:21,690 --> 01:16:18,760
all that help so but I thought we might

1747
01:16:23,550 --> 01:16:21,700
talk about here at the beginning and I'm

1748
01:16:28,020 --> 01:16:23,560
thinking what we this stuff might be

1749
01:16:31,440 --> 01:16:28,030
included in is that who is Donald

1750
01:16:34,020 --> 01:16:31,450
Hoffman because this is a guy who people

1751
01:16:38,250 --> 01:16:34,030
are going to run into on Sam Harris's

1752
01:16:40,250 --> 01:16:38,260
show or on Michael Shermer show but he

1753
01:16:44,340 --> 01:16:40,260
sits in kind of this strange space

1754
01:16:47,790 --> 01:16:44,350
between us if you will and him you know

1755
01:16:50,430 --> 01:16:47,800
yeah yeah definitely and yeah in terms

1756
01:16:52,200 --> 01:16:50,440
of what you asked I think one of the one

1757
01:16:54,500 --> 01:16:52,210
of his great contributions he's doing

1758
01:16:56,520 --> 01:16:54,510
the research in consciousness studies

1759
01:16:58,920 --> 01:16:56,530
and he's one of the leading figures

1760
01:17:01,020 --> 01:16:58,930
there but you see him everywhere right

1761
01:17:04,200 --> 01:17:01,030
yeah he's online he's really got a

1762
01:17:06,480 --> 01:17:04,210
strong media presence as well so so rich

1763
01:17:10,260 --> 01:17:06,490
how would you sum up for people this

1764
01:17:12,420 --> 01:17:10,270
idea that you know I'm like one little

1765
01:17:16,790 --> 01:17:12,430
thing like man he plays up this

1766
01:17:19,410 --> 01:17:16,800
evolution [\h__\h] absolutely yeah I think I

1767
01:17:21,000 --> 01:17:19,420
probably in his defense you know any

1768
01:17:24,450 --> 01:17:21,010
criticism that you hear from me about

1769
01:17:26,880 --> 01:17:24,460
him I say is in the most constructive

1770
01:17:29,010 --> 01:17:26,890
respectful way possible because I think

1771
01:17:31,500 --> 01:17:29,020
like you I really appreciate what he's

1772
01:17:33,660 --> 01:17:31,510
doing in the field of consciousness

1773
01:17:36,510 --> 01:17:33,670
studies he's certainly one of the

1774
01:17:39,390 --> 01:17:36,520
pioneers in terms of coming a long way

1775
01:17:42,690 --> 01:17:39,400
from really the reductive materialism

1776
01:17:45,420 --> 01:17:42,700
that was all you heard a couple of maybe

1777
01:17:48,060 --> 01:17:45,430
a decade ago even or two decades ago

1778
01:17:51,090 --> 01:17:48,070
certainly I I think what he's trying to

1779
01:17:54,960 --> 01:17:51,100
do is he's trying to make spirituality

1780
01:17:57,270 --> 01:17:54,970
in some sense palatable for an a

1781
01:18:01,820 --> 01:17:57,280
scholarly audience that is still

1782
01:18:04,710 --> 01:18:01,830
enthralled to the the old scientistic

1783
01:18:06,930 --> 01:18:04,720
materialistic paradigm that needs to

1784
01:18:10,260 --> 01:18:06,940
have anything you say about spirituality

1785
01:18:13,110 --> 01:18:10,270
couched in those in that jargon that

1786
01:18:17,730 --> 01:18:13,120
traditional materialist jargon how he

1787
01:18:19,120 --> 01:18:17,740
does find a way to fit in with some of

1788
01:18:24,940 --> 01:18:19,130
those folks the

1789
01:18:26,710 --> 01:18:24,950
konna sometimes robust how does it heat

1790
01:18:29,380 --> 01:18:26,720
so maybe you want to kind of stay yeah

1791
01:18:32,350 --> 01:18:29,390
he does that and how he does that yeah I

1792
01:18:34,600 --> 01:18:32,360
think what's great about Donald Hofmann

1793
01:18:39,360 --> 01:18:34,610
is he has found a way to both sort of go

1794
01:18:42,550 --> 01:18:39,370
against the the prevailing grain of

1795
01:18:44,770 --> 01:18:42,560
traditional theories of consciousness

1796
01:18:47,250 --> 01:18:44,780
which tended toward the materialistic

1797
01:18:51,280 --> 01:18:47,260
side of the materialist versus

1798
01:18:56,770 --> 01:18:51,290
consciousness spectrum and he has done

1799
01:19:01,480 --> 01:18:56,780
it in a way that articulates the notion

1800
01:19:04,500 --> 01:19:01,490
that consciousness is what generates

1801
01:19:09,310 --> 01:19:04,510
material reality but he's done it in

1802
01:19:11,620 --> 01:19:09,320
terms of things like evolution and

1803
01:19:14,170 --> 01:19:11,630
mathematical empirically verifiable

1804
01:19:16,240 --> 01:19:14,180
mathematical theories that make it

1805
01:19:19,510 --> 01:19:16,250
palatable or at least somewhat palatable

1806
01:19:21,190 --> 01:19:19,520
at least it enables him to talk to to

1807
01:19:23,680 --> 01:19:21,200
the majority of the scientific community

1808
01:19:25,480 --> 01:19:23,690
that does not agree with that and I

1809
01:19:27,310 --> 01:19:25,490
almost get the sense sometime in

1810
01:19:28,180 --> 01:19:27,320
listening like to his interview with

1811
01:19:30,910 --> 01:19:28,190
Michael Shermer

1812
01:19:34,660 --> 01:19:30,920
or his interview with Sam Harris that

1813
01:19:37,060 --> 01:19:34,670
they don't quite totally know what he's

1814
01:19:40,000 --> 01:19:37,070
saying because he throws out these terms

1815
01:19:43,090 --> 01:19:40,010
like evolution and he throws out these

1816
01:19:45,460 --> 01:19:43,100
terms like provable mathematical models

1817
01:19:49,630 --> 01:19:45,470
and they're like nodding their head and

1818
01:19:51,370 --> 01:19:49,640
then he kind of says of course this is

1819
01:19:54,730 --> 01:19:51,380
fundamental and there is no your

1820
01:19:58,110 --> 01:19:54,740
time-space is doomed and reality isn't

1821
01:20:01,270 --> 01:19:58,120
well so he's kind of very cleverly

1822
01:20:03,690 --> 01:20:01,280
throwing him for a loop there if that's

1823
01:20:06,880 --> 01:20:03,700
yeah if that's his intention I agree

1824
01:20:11,680 --> 01:20:06,890
he's at least yeah he's at least

1825
01:20:15,160 --> 01:20:11,690
articulating very yeah very anti

1826
01:20:18,100 --> 01:20:15,170
materialist ideas in terms that a

1827
01:20:21,520 --> 01:20:18,110
materialist could relate to and if

1828
01:20:24,670 --> 01:20:21,530
they're not particularly subtle thinkers

1829
01:20:27,010 --> 01:20:24,680
or trained well in philosophy of mind

1830
01:20:29,290 --> 01:20:27,020
they might just think that he's one of

1831
01:20:30,730 --> 01:20:29,300
them I don't know if that's the case so

1832
01:20:32,710 --> 01:20:30,740
here's another thing I thought we might

1833
01:20:34,900 --> 01:20:32,720
chat about because again it

1834
01:20:36,730 --> 01:20:34,910
inside baseball and and then when you

1835
01:20:39,730 --> 01:20:36,740
break it down I think it really can be

1836
01:20:42,730 --> 01:20:39,740
very revealing to people I thought his

1837
01:20:44,860 --> 01:20:42,740
story on the TED talk and the origins of

1838
01:20:47,290 --> 01:20:44,870
his TED talk which is kind of a

1839
01:20:48,820 --> 01:20:47,300
breakthrough event for someone of his

1840
01:20:51,940 --> 01:20:48,830
position you know and this kind of

1841
01:20:54,340 --> 01:20:51,950
obscure consciousness studies thing and

1842
01:20:57,850 --> 01:20:54,350
he does this TED talk and he has 2.7

1843
01:20:59,490 --> 01:20:57,860
million views on it but the origin so

1844
01:21:01,990 --> 01:20:59,500
that is interesting because of course

1845
01:21:04,270 --> 01:21:02,000
people who listen to skeptic OU will

1846
01:21:07,180 --> 01:21:04,280
remember you know Rupert Sheldrake's

1847
01:21:10,090 --> 01:21:07,190
famous TED talk that was banned for a

1848
01:21:13,180 --> 01:21:10,100
lot less controversial stuff that Don

1849
01:21:15,700 --> 01:21:13,190
Hoffman said maybe that is somewhat of

1850
01:21:17,830 --> 01:21:15,710
an indication of the times and how

1851
01:21:19,690 --> 01:21:17,840
things have changed a little bit there's

1852
01:21:22,360 --> 01:21:19,700
two ways of looking at it even there's a

1853
01:21:24,610 --> 01:21:22,370
genuine change inside of Ted or as I

1854
01:21:26,680 --> 01:21:24,620
suspect they just can't quite get away

1855
01:21:30,640 --> 01:21:26,690
with it to the extent that they could

1856
01:21:33,520 --> 01:21:30,650
before so now they let him talk but what

1857
01:21:36,100 --> 01:21:33,530
do you make of the backstory of the TED

1858
01:21:38,170 --> 01:21:36,110
talk as he describes it and how he was

1859
01:21:41,320 --> 01:21:38,180
kind of asked to kind of hey maybe shift

1860
01:21:43,270 --> 01:21:41,330
it over and talk about this more and

1861
01:21:46,000 --> 01:21:43,280
just that whole thing what did you make

1862
01:21:49,030 --> 01:21:46,010
of that yeah I really wasn't sure

1863
01:21:52,180 --> 01:21:49,040
exactly how he meant that you you seem

1864
01:21:53,920 --> 01:21:52,190
to understand that on a more subtle

1865
01:21:56,290 --> 01:21:53,930
level than and I did and I was wondering

1866
01:21:58,210 --> 01:21:56,300
if you knew more than I did about the

1867
01:22:01,120 --> 01:21:58,220
backstory to that for that whole

1868
01:22:03,730 --> 01:22:01,130
scenario well I remember when this thing

1869
01:22:06,180 --> 01:22:03,740
happened with dr. Rupert Sheldrake a few

1870
01:22:09,100 --> 01:22:06,190
years ago and I remember talking to

1871
01:22:11,440 --> 01:22:09,110
Sheldrick and he actually said that he

1872
01:22:13,690 --> 01:22:11,450
talked to Chris Anderson who was the

1873
01:22:16,120 --> 01:22:13,700
creator of the TED talk series and still

1874
01:22:18,370 --> 01:22:16,130
is actively involved in it and that he

1875
01:22:20,140 --> 01:22:18,380
this is Rupert saying you know he got a

1876
01:22:22,030 --> 01:22:20,150
pretty good vibe from Chris and he was

1877
01:22:25,720 --> 01:22:22,040
just like hey man you know I do need to

1878
01:22:29,740 --> 01:22:25,730
kind of make sure that we are not

1879
01:22:34,180 --> 01:22:29,750
spreading kind of crazy ideas and I do

1880
01:22:37,300 --> 01:22:34,190
have this secret scientific board it

1881
01:22:40,120 --> 01:22:37,310
anonymously decides and guides me in

1882
01:22:42,670 --> 01:22:40,130
doing that which sounds very very shaky

1883
01:22:44,290 --> 01:22:42,680
but it does sound like you know he's

1884
01:22:46,280 --> 01:22:44,300
somebody he was involved in and I

1885
01:22:48,770 --> 01:22:46,290
couldn't see him kind of shaping

1886
01:22:51,110 --> 01:22:48,780
saying hey we can go here but let's not

1887
01:22:53,000 --> 01:22:51,120
go there kind of thing but I don't want

1888
01:22:55,610 --> 01:22:53,010
to make a bigger deal out of it than it

1889
01:22:58,010 --> 01:22:55,620
is because I do not have any inside

1890
01:23:00,740 --> 01:22:58,020
information I just thought it was kind

1891
01:23:03,950 --> 01:23:00,750
of a curious here's the other thing that

1892
01:23:06,350 --> 01:23:03,960
I wanted to kind of just throw on the

1893
01:23:10,100 --> 01:23:06,360
table and that is this whole idea of

1894
01:23:12,590 --> 01:23:10,110
mathematics and mathematical modeling

1895
01:23:15,760 --> 01:23:12,600
and the first thing I wanted to kind of

1896
01:23:18,830 --> 01:23:15,770
chat about is there's a reality to what

1897
01:23:20,780 --> 01:23:18,840
dr. Hoffman is talking about there and

1898
01:23:23,330 --> 01:23:20,790
that he's so excited about it this great

1899
01:23:25,580 --> 01:23:23,340
that there are you know deep thinkers

1900
01:23:27,860 --> 01:23:25,590
scientists like him were excited about

1901
01:23:29,270 --> 01:23:27,870
math and excited about math models and

1902
01:23:32,450 --> 01:23:29,280
what I wanted to throw on the table is

1903
01:23:36,140 --> 01:23:32,460
in defense of him if anyone has ever

1904
01:23:39,590 --> 01:23:36,150
looked at the math behind quantum

1905
01:23:42,560 --> 01:23:39,600
physics you know you just are kind of

1906
01:23:44,570 --> 01:23:42,570
blown away because to a lot of us

1907
01:23:46,400 --> 01:23:44,580
quantum physics still has this whoo-whoo

1908
01:23:48,770 --> 01:23:46,410
element the way that it's talked about

1909
01:23:51,020 --> 01:23:48,780
and for people who are in the field

1910
01:23:55,070 --> 01:23:51,030
they're like are you kidding the math

1911
01:23:58,510 --> 01:23:55,080
here folks is like super duper at the

1912
01:24:01,280 --> 01:23:58,520
cutting edge of complexity and it yields

1913
01:24:04,030 --> 01:24:01,290
unbelievably reliable predictable

1914
01:24:06,710 --> 01:24:04,040
results and dr. Hoffman is

1915
01:24:09,170 --> 01:24:06,720
understandably very impressed by the

1916
01:24:13,250 --> 01:24:09,180
results that quantum physics generates

1917
01:24:16,640 --> 01:24:13,260
so I want you to maybe kind of pick it

1918
01:24:20,300 --> 01:24:16,650
up there and tell us how your field

1919
01:24:23,030 --> 01:24:20,310
looks at mathematical models as they may

1920
01:24:27,590 --> 01:24:23,040
relate to consciousness what role do

1921
01:24:30,800 --> 01:24:27,600
they play yeah well you know again I

1922
01:24:33,890 --> 01:24:30,810
think contemporary philosophy of mind

1923
01:24:38,560 --> 01:24:33,900
has been becoming increasingly

1924
01:24:44,630 --> 01:24:40,970
various interpretations of quantum

1925
01:24:46,670 --> 01:24:44,640
physics and oh as everyone knows right

1926
01:24:48,620 --> 01:24:46,680
they say everybody conferences they'll

1927
01:24:51,260 --> 01:24:48,630
just they'll say you know just google it

1928
01:24:53,270 --> 01:24:51,270
look up quantum physics a Wikipedia

1929
01:24:55,190 --> 01:24:53,280
right everybody has their their their

1930
01:24:57,350 --> 01:24:55,200
metaphysical interpretation of the math

1931
01:24:59,200 --> 01:24:57,360
and they have math that backs up their

1932
01:25:02,140 --> 01:24:59,210
interpretation well

1933
01:25:03,640 --> 01:25:02,150
the mask isn't as you pointed out in the

1934
01:25:05,649 --> 01:25:03,650
interview the math isn't the

1935
01:25:07,540 --> 01:25:05,659
interpretation the way I kind of read

1936
01:25:10,689 --> 01:25:07,550
what you're saying is to even be a

1937
01:25:13,689 --> 01:25:10,699
player you have to do the really good

1938
01:25:16,120 --> 01:25:13,699
math and then but everyone is going to

1939
01:25:17,919 --> 01:25:16,130
not only have the math but then they're

1940
01:25:20,740 --> 01:25:17,929
going to have their interpretations of

1941
01:25:23,430 --> 01:25:20,750
the math and that's where the philosophy

1942
01:25:26,919 --> 01:25:23,440
comes in and that's why we have these

1943
01:25:29,500 --> 01:25:26,929
differences but their underlying that is

1944
01:25:32,320 --> 01:25:29,510
the math I think that is it until you

1945
01:25:35,649 --> 01:25:32,330
said it one second ago I did not have

1946
01:25:37,540 --> 01:25:35,659
that insight rich his confidence in the

1947
01:25:39,490 --> 01:25:37,550
mathematics and then the empirical

1948
01:25:42,520 --> 01:25:39,500
justifications based on those

1949
01:25:44,709 --> 01:25:42,530
mathematics I think very close to some

1950
01:25:47,620 --> 01:25:44,719
of the pioneers in the field of quantum

1951
01:25:50,110 --> 01:25:47,630
physics Mahanoy Minh and Wigner and

1952
01:25:51,970 --> 01:25:50,120
those guys who said that the

1953
01:25:54,790 --> 01:25:51,980
implications of quantum physics are such

1954
01:25:57,399 --> 01:25:54,800
that we have to retain a very

1955
01:25:59,970 --> 01:25:57,409
foundational place for consciousness a

1956
01:26:03,550 --> 01:25:59,980
lot of people aren't aware of how

1957
01:26:06,189 --> 01:26:03,560
powerful the mathematical models of

1958
01:26:08,020 --> 01:26:06,199
quantum physics are like one of the

1959
01:26:10,870 --> 01:26:08,030
things you'll hear Hofmann just kind of

1960
01:26:13,330 --> 01:26:10,880
throw out and it takes a while to digest

1961
01:26:15,399 --> 01:26:13,340
it is like over at CERN

1962
01:26:17,260 --> 01:26:15,409
you know when they smash those atoms

1963
01:26:19,360 --> 01:26:17,270
together I forget what the stats are but

1964
01:26:24,550 --> 01:26:19,370
every time they run one of those they

1965
01:26:26,709 --> 01:26:24,560
produce like 10 terabytes of data now so

1966
01:26:29,169 --> 01:26:26,719
somebody is then running that data

1967
01:26:31,660 --> 01:26:29,179
through all these complex mathematical

1968
01:26:33,459 --> 01:26:31,670
models and then they're coming up with

1969
01:26:36,550 --> 01:26:33,469
these results like he says where they go

1970
01:26:38,800 --> 01:26:36,560
up spacetime is doomed you know if like

1971
01:26:41,860 --> 01:26:38,810
someone has crunched the numbers the

1972
01:26:44,169 --> 01:26:41,870
terabyte of numbers and the formula

1973
01:26:48,669 --> 01:26:44,179
works out that way and we can only

1974
01:26:51,450 --> 01:26:48,679
imagine how appealing that is to someone

1975
01:26:54,880 --> 01:26:51,460
who really gets the math at a level that

1976
01:26:56,979 --> 01:26:54,890
99.9% people don't get to say that's

1977
01:27:01,030 --> 01:26:56,989
right there look we just crunch the

1978
01:27:03,850 --> 01:27:01,040
numbers that's it so I that the shut up

1979
01:27:06,430 --> 01:27:03,860
and calculate thing has an appeal that

1980
01:27:09,250 --> 01:27:06,440
most of us just don't get because we

1981
01:27:12,939 --> 01:27:09,260
don't understand the extent to which

1982
01:27:15,669 --> 01:27:12,949
these guys really are calculating so

1983
01:27:17,040 --> 01:27:15,679
you don't need the calculations to do

1984
01:27:19,689 --> 01:27:17,050
the interpretation and that

1985
01:27:22,719 --> 01:27:19,699
philosophical stuff but maybe it helps

1986
01:27:25,959 --> 01:27:22,729
us understand it better if we understand

1987
01:27:28,629 --> 01:27:25,969
that there's some really fantastic math

1988
01:27:32,500 --> 01:27:28,639
going on here and that that has an

1989
01:27:35,680 --> 01:27:32,510
allure yeah certainly and and and again

1990
01:27:39,430 --> 01:27:35,690
as he said if you if in terms of making

1991
01:27:42,640 --> 01:27:39,440
empirical predictions of math and being

1992
01:27:45,790 --> 01:27:42,650
useful for extremely practical and

1993
01:27:47,799 --> 01:27:45,800
important aspects of our lives the

1994
01:27:50,589 --> 01:27:47,809
mathematics of quantum physics is really

1995
01:27:53,140 --> 01:27:50,599
important but then rich I love what you

1996
01:27:55,390 --> 01:27:53,150
kind of shot back to me in an email as

1997
01:27:59,620 --> 01:27:55,400
you immediately picked out this idea

1998
01:28:03,549 --> 01:27:59,630
that okay even if we can agree with dr.

1999
01:28:06,160 --> 01:28:03,559
Hoffman do we have to go all the way do

2000
01:28:08,469 --> 01:28:06,170
we have to say that mathematics is the

2001
01:28:08,830 --> 01:28:08,479
be-all end-all and I love how you bring

2002
01:28:11,049 --> 01:28:08,840
up

2003
01:28:13,149 --> 01:28:11,059
well what about poetry and I love the

2004
01:28:15,669 --> 01:28:13,159
juxtaposition of that I was just helping

2005
01:28:18,399 --> 01:28:15,679
my daughter who's in high school help

2006
01:28:21,549 --> 01:28:18,409
her with her essay on my poetry deserves

2007
01:28:24,310 --> 01:28:21,559
a stronger place in our curriculum and

2008
01:28:27,189 --> 01:28:24,320
in doing that it would replace some of

2009
01:28:29,259 --> 01:28:27,199
this math but are there other ways of

2010
01:28:31,719 --> 01:28:29,269
understanding that's what you were kind

2011
01:28:34,930 --> 01:28:31,729
of pushing back for in is that sometimes

2012
01:28:37,049 --> 01:28:34,940
maybe a limitation of the physics

2013
01:28:44,109 --> 01:28:37,059
centric kind of approach to

2014
01:28:46,089 --> 01:28:44,119
consciousness yeah kind of one of my

2015
01:28:49,199 --> 01:28:46,099
areas of interest search interests

2016
01:28:52,600 --> 01:28:49,209
lately you know is the sort of the

2017
01:28:55,000 --> 01:28:52,610
paradigm shaping hold that science and

2018
01:29:00,040 --> 01:28:55,010
mathematics which are kind of part and

2019
01:29:02,469 --> 01:29:00,050
parcel of the same same thing have had

2020
01:29:04,299 --> 01:29:02,479
in shaping our you know our sort of

2021
01:29:07,569 --> 01:29:04,309
cultural paradigm and I think you know

2022
01:29:09,219 --> 01:29:07,579
that sometimes and I and again I sense

2023
01:29:11,109 --> 01:29:09,229
it in in consciousness studies when you

2024
01:29:13,089 --> 01:29:11,119
go to conferences about it and listen to

2025
01:29:16,029 --> 01:29:13,099
the guys like Donald Hoffman who are

2026
01:29:20,140 --> 01:29:16,039
shaping the parameters of the discussion

2027
01:29:23,799 --> 01:29:20,150
and the dialogue they equate scientific

2028
01:29:26,890 --> 01:29:23,809
and mathematical descriptions of reality

2029
01:29:29,800 --> 01:29:26,900
with reality and frankly besides being a

2030
01:29:32,710 --> 01:29:29,810
cultural bias of modern Western secular

2031
01:29:35,230 --> 01:29:32,720
society I never hear them really give a

2032
01:29:37,810 --> 01:29:35,240
justification let's take that one step

2033
01:29:41,470 --> 01:29:37,820
further you use the word precision and

2034
01:29:42,940 --> 01:29:41,480
we both love the way that dr. Hoffman

2035
01:29:45,250 --> 01:29:42,950
brought that into the conversation

2036
01:29:48,010 --> 01:29:45,260
especially how he connected it to

2037
01:29:50,500 --> 01:29:48,020
spirituality and that if we're going to

2038
01:29:54,460 --> 01:29:50,510
talk as precise as possible

2039
01:29:57,310 --> 01:29:54,470
Bravo but then what you point out is why

2040
01:30:00,550 --> 01:29:57,320
do we assume that poetry isn't a more

2041
01:30:03,970 --> 01:30:00,560
precise way to describe it and that's

2042
01:30:05,950 --> 01:30:03,980
such a head spinner but I loved that I

2043
01:30:08,950 --> 01:30:05,960
did yeah I mean I think that's really

2044
01:30:10,870 --> 01:30:08,960
important especially now and again

2045
01:30:14,620 --> 01:30:10,880
because I think you know we live in such

2046
01:30:16,590 --> 01:30:14,630
a scientistic technocratic kind of a

2047
01:30:23,290 --> 01:30:16,600
culture that we have just sort of

2048
01:30:27,220 --> 01:30:23,300
equated science with fact as a pen and

2049
01:30:29,440 --> 01:30:27,230
and other realms of other modes of

2050
01:30:32,500 --> 01:30:29,450
knowing like poetry or literature or

2051
01:30:35,770 --> 01:30:32,510
spirituality or philosophy even with

2052
01:30:38,860 --> 01:30:35,780
sort of myth or sort of fanciful

2053
01:30:40,450 --> 01:30:38,870
thinking that with it without question

2054
01:30:42,820 --> 01:30:40,460
and that's an assumption that I think is

2055
01:30:45,430 --> 01:30:42,830
largely unchallenged in our culture that

2056
01:30:46,780 --> 01:30:45,440
you know we always talk about when we

2057
01:30:48,820 --> 01:30:46,790
well we don't want to talk about real

2058
01:30:51,930 --> 01:30:48,830
facts about the way reality is of course

2059
01:30:53,530 --> 01:30:51,940
you got to be scientific but I just

2060
01:30:55,510 --> 01:30:53,540
especially when it comes to

2061
01:30:57,010 --> 01:30:55,520
consciousness don't see any

2062
01:30:57,520 --> 01:30:57,020
justification for that I mean you can

2063
01:31:00,820 --> 01:30:57,530
see it

2064
01:31:05,650 --> 01:31:00,830
I mean I'm innocent assume it but in

2065
01:31:09,250 --> 01:31:05,660
terms of explaining to me why say

2066
01:31:11,410 --> 01:31:09,260
reading a novel by Camus or reading st.

2067
01:31:13,660 --> 01:31:11,420
Augustine's Confessions isn't a more

2068
01:31:15,520 --> 01:31:13,670
precise description of conscious life

2069
01:31:19,450 --> 01:31:15,530
than a bunch of mathematical equations

2070
01:31:22,720 --> 01:31:19,460
for God's sake IIIi don't get let me

2071
01:31:26,740 --> 01:31:22,730
throw on the pile Emily Dickinson quote

2072
01:31:31,860 --> 01:31:26,750
if I can stop one heart from breaking I

2073
01:31:35,140 --> 01:31:31,870
shall not live in vain this is not a

2074
01:31:38,500 --> 01:31:35,150
mathematical equation but it touches our

2075
01:31:40,330 --> 01:31:38,510
heart in a way that is precise it

2076
01:31:42,970 --> 01:31:40,340
precisely opens

2077
01:31:45,250 --> 01:31:42,980
by our heart to this larger field of

2078
01:31:48,430 --> 01:31:45,260
consciousness and maybe I'm stretching

2079
01:31:50,580 --> 01:31:48,440
the use of the word precise but I would

2080
01:31:52,870 --> 01:31:50,590
kind of throw that on the table this is

2081
01:31:55,830 --> 01:31:52,880
absolutely and I and I think it also

2082
01:32:00,130 --> 01:31:55,840
speaks to the notion of besides it

2083
01:32:01,840 --> 01:32:00,140
piranha Klee precision and success they

2084
01:32:07,090 --> 01:32:01,850
talked about the success of science

2085
01:32:09,640 --> 01:32:07,100
being vague terms in terms of so how do

2086
01:32:11,260 --> 01:32:09,650
you define that you know they're also

2087
01:32:13,690 --> 01:32:11,270
circular I mean the reasoning behind

2088
01:32:15,910 --> 01:32:13,700
them are circular why is mathematics

2089
01:32:17,200 --> 01:32:15,920
more more precise than poetry well

2090
01:32:19,780 --> 01:32:17,210
because you can demonstrate it

2091
01:32:22,600 --> 01:32:19,790
mathematically right why has science

2092
01:32:24,100 --> 01:32:22,610
more successful than spirituality well

2093
01:32:26,560 --> 01:32:24,110
because you're using scientific

2094
01:32:28,390 --> 01:32:26,570
standards of success I've never heard

2095
01:32:32,470 --> 01:32:28,400
them make arguments fundamental

2096
01:32:34,630 --> 01:32:32,480
arguments for that and I would accept

2097
01:32:37,540 --> 01:32:34,640
Donald Hofmann or anybody else saying

2098
01:32:39,370 --> 01:32:37,550
that the the mathematics of

2099
01:32:41,230 --> 01:32:39,380
consciousness is going to be a great

2100
01:32:43,210 --> 01:32:41,240
revolutionary breakthrough for a

2101
01:32:46,480 --> 01:32:43,220
scientific understanding of

2102
01:32:48,220 --> 01:32:46,490
consciousness but they speak about

2103
01:32:51,580 --> 01:32:48,230
mathematical descriptions of

2104
01:32:55,650 --> 01:32:51,590
consciousness as sort of an ultimate

2105
01:32:58,800 --> 01:32:55,660
metaphysical ontological absolute of

2106
01:33:01,720 --> 01:32:58,810
superior to other modes of thought

2107
01:33:03,550 --> 01:33:01,730
description of consciousness and that

2108
01:33:06,580 --> 01:33:03,560
they don't I do not think they make an

2109
01:33:09,100 --> 01:33:06,590
adequate case for okay so we're I think

2110
01:33:11,410 --> 01:33:09,110
coming around the bend let's try and see

2111
01:33:14,170 --> 01:33:11,420
if when you tackle this last one I think

2112
01:33:15,940 --> 01:33:14,180
one aspect of what dr. Hoffman brings to

2113
01:33:19,120 --> 01:33:15,950
the table that we both appreciate is

2114
01:33:22,290 --> 01:33:19,130
that he tries to connect what he's

2115
01:33:25,420 --> 01:33:22,300
discovering or his theory with a deeper

2116
01:33:27,610 --> 01:33:25,430
spirituality and maybe that's a way to

2117
01:33:29,350 --> 01:33:27,620
connect it with this broader

2118
01:33:30,990 --> 01:33:29,360
understanding that you and I are kind of

2119
01:33:34,990 --> 01:33:31,000
grappling with of what consciousness

2120
01:33:43,300 --> 01:33:35,000
really is what do you think he makes the

2121
01:33:44,980 --> 01:33:43,310
case influence of Gnosticism it's it's

2122
01:33:46,530 --> 01:33:44,990
influencing the way it's kind of

2123
01:33:48,730 --> 01:33:46,540
influenced the way I thought about this

2124
01:33:50,830 --> 01:33:48,740
interview when I listened to it a couple

2125
01:33:52,030 --> 01:33:50,840
of times on the gnostic tradition and

2126
01:33:53,300 --> 01:33:52,040
philosophy and religion not to digress

2127
01:33:54,320 --> 01:33:53,310
but it's it

2128
01:33:56,750 --> 01:33:54,330
basically one of their fundamental

2129
01:33:58,910 --> 01:33:56,760
premises is that we live in illusional

2130
01:34:00,680 --> 01:33:58,920
world very much the way Donald Hoffman

2131
01:34:03,740 --> 01:34:00,690
says it except this is a spiritual

2132
01:34:05,540 --> 01:34:03,750
tradition and um one of the assertions

2133
01:34:09,470 --> 01:34:05,550
that they make that I think maybe it

2134
01:34:11,300 --> 01:34:09,480
applies to his thinking about about math

2135
01:34:14,240 --> 01:34:11,310
and science in terms of understanding

2136
01:34:17,990 --> 01:34:14,250
and approaching an ultimate sort of

2137
01:34:19,640 --> 01:34:18,000
understanding of of physicalism in the

2138
01:34:23,840 --> 01:34:19,650
physical world and consciousness in

2139
01:34:26,950 --> 01:34:23,850
relation to it is that a physical world

2140
01:34:30,140 --> 01:34:26,960
in his estimation is certainly illusory

2141
01:34:32,150 --> 01:34:30,150
the perceptions and cognitions and

2142
01:34:37,910 --> 01:34:32,160
conceptual constructs that we come up

2143
01:34:42,200 --> 01:34:37,920
with generate disillusion right and that

2144
01:34:46,040 --> 01:34:42,210
would include mathematics and science so

2145
01:34:49,840 --> 01:34:46,050
that essentially doing math or math and

2146
01:34:52,370 --> 01:34:49,850
science it would seem would perpetuate

2147
01:34:58,040 --> 01:34:52,380
the illusion that they're trying to

2148
01:35:01,130 --> 01:34:58,050
transcend more than transcending it if

2149
01:35:03,980 --> 01:35:01,140
that makes sense the way I describe it

2150
01:35:07,340 --> 01:35:03,990
and that's again I don't know that

2151
01:35:10,190 --> 01:35:07,350
that's perfect perfect what I thought

2152
01:35:12,410 --> 01:35:10,200
I'd again kind of ask if you could do

2153
01:35:14,240 --> 01:35:12,420
for the benefit of the audience no no no

2154
01:35:15,560 --> 01:35:14,250
cuz that's such great stuff I love where

2155
01:35:19,030 --> 01:35:15,570
you're going about earlier such a deep

2156
01:35:22,640 --> 01:35:19,040
thinker in this stuff but maybe kind of

2157
01:35:25,190 --> 01:35:22,650
phrase it more as a question you know of

2158
01:35:28,190 --> 01:35:25,200
like do we have to you know that just

2159
01:35:31,040 --> 01:35:28,200
what you said is that are we going

2160
01:35:35,090 --> 01:35:31,050
further down you know or you know you

2161
01:35:37,160 --> 01:35:35,100
get roughly yeah yeah I guess and

2162
01:35:39,440 --> 01:35:37,170
connecting that to however you want to

2163
01:35:41,390 --> 01:35:39,450
connect it with Gnosticism but I think

2164
01:35:44,030 --> 01:35:41,400
it's even beyond Gnosticism I think we

2165
01:35:46,790 --> 01:35:44,040
all have a sense this deep spiritual

2166
01:35:51,490 --> 01:35:46,800
sense that moving further into math and

2167
01:35:55,580 --> 01:35:51,500
knowing maybe moving us away from this

2168
01:35:57,710 --> 01:35:55,590
deeper spiritual part of us and that

2169
01:36:00,500 --> 01:35:57,720
that has been the constant struggle of

2170
01:36:02,410 --> 01:36:00,510
of science and it you know is you get

2171
01:36:05,950 --> 01:36:02,420
what I'm saying yeah absolutely

2172
01:36:07,189 --> 01:36:05,960
yeah and I like you I think like you I

2173
01:36:09,890 --> 01:36:07,199
give

2174
01:36:11,750 --> 01:36:09,900
often a tremendous amount of credit for

2175
01:36:15,199 --> 01:36:11,760
you know not only you know trying to

2176
01:36:17,899 --> 01:36:15,209
overcome a materialist paradigm and to

2177
01:36:22,969 --> 01:36:17,909
do it via science and rigorous science

2178
01:36:29,600 --> 01:36:22,979
empirical science and mathematics but

2179
01:36:34,219 --> 01:36:29,610
also to understand how mathematics and

2180
01:36:37,009 --> 01:36:34,229
science may play a fundamental role in I

2181
01:36:39,410 --> 01:36:37,019
guess and again this is where I'm not

2182
01:36:41,029 --> 01:36:39,420
sure exactly maybe you know maybe you

2183
01:36:42,890 --> 01:36:41,039
get it but this is one of the things I'm

2184
01:36:44,839 --> 01:36:42,900
unclear about what he's saying and my

2185
01:36:48,620 --> 01:36:44,849
question was intended to to try to

2186
01:36:51,439 --> 01:36:48,630
discern he see obviously if everything

2187
01:36:56,209 --> 01:36:51,449
is in consciousness everything in the

2188
01:36:59,689 --> 01:36:56,219
world is part of consciousness but he

2189
01:37:03,049 --> 01:36:59,699
also thinks that math and science

2190
01:37:06,439 --> 01:37:03,059
give us some privileged access with a

2191
01:37:08,209 --> 01:37:06,449
particular kind of precision - what what

2192
01:37:10,850 --> 01:37:08,219
what what it's all about in some

2193
01:37:14,810 --> 01:37:10,860
ultimate sense and how we generate this

2194
01:37:17,149 --> 01:37:14,820
user-interface illusion it seems as

2195
01:37:20,000 --> 01:37:17,159
though he's sim his thinking is sort of

2196
01:37:24,109 --> 01:37:20,010
similar to the Platonic ancient Greek

2197
01:37:26,569 --> 01:37:24,119
philosophers um who felt that we do live

2198
01:37:29,089 --> 01:37:26,579
in this sort of AI idealistic world of

2199
01:37:30,979 --> 01:37:29,099
consciousness but math Matt it's quite

2200
01:37:33,620 --> 01:37:30,989
it's in at some foundational level

2201
01:37:35,949 --> 01:37:33,630
mathematical again I'd love to have him

2202
01:37:39,020 --> 01:37:35,959
here to ask him that and you kind of did

2203
01:37:41,600 --> 01:37:39,030
and I but I wasn't sure what his answer

2204
01:37:43,609 --> 01:37:41,610
meant it sounded as though that's what

2205
01:37:46,100 --> 01:37:43,619
he was saying but I don't know what do

2206
01:37:47,930 --> 01:37:46,110
you think but before I answer that I

2207
01:37:50,239 --> 01:37:47,940
want to bring you back to your point

2208
01:37:52,250 --> 01:37:50,249
that you made earlier about Gnosticism

2209
01:37:55,879 --> 01:37:52,260
and I want to see if you can do it again

2210
01:37:58,790 --> 01:37:55,889
and say it because I love where yup what

2211
01:38:01,339 --> 01:37:58,800
that rich is is it moving us you have to

2212
01:38:05,259 --> 01:38:01,349
wonder if that illusion of moving

2213
01:38:08,750 --> 01:38:05,269
towards knowing is maybe moving us away

2214
01:38:10,189 --> 01:38:08,760
from the deeper spirituality that's what

2215
01:38:13,040 --> 01:38:10,199
I took out of what you're saying about

2216
01:38:15,410 --> 01:38:13,050
the narcissism thing yeah so I think I

2217
01:38:18,229 --> 01:38:15,420
got that I'm the first time around but

2218
01:38:20,930 --> 01:38:18,239
again if you could simplify it for folks

2219
01:38:22,790 --> 01:38:20,940
tighten it up what

2220
01:38:24,950 --> 01:38:22,800
Donald Hofmann is trying to accomplish

2221
01:38:28,090 --> 01:38:24,960
and doing really great job of that on

2222
01:38:31,040 --> 01:38:28,100
many levels is trying to provide a

2223
01:38:33,980 --> 01:38:31,050
mathematically rigorous description of

2224
01:38:37,670 --> 01:38:33,990
both consciousness and how consciousness

2225
01:38:40,280 --> 01:38:37,680
generates this illusional material world

2226
01:38:42,170 --> 01:38:40,290
that we live in illusional in this in

2227
01:38:44,900 --> 01:38:42,180
the sense that a user interface on a

2228
01:38:50,450 --> 01:38:44,910
computer is illusional again my concern

2229
01:38:53,360 --> 01:38:50,460
though is that if the constructs of our

2230
01:38:56,180 --> 01:38:53,370
consciousness are what generate the user

2231
01:38:59,120 --> 01:38:56,190
interface then Matt the math and science

2232
01:39:01,730 --> 01:38:59,130
that he has a lot of faith in instead of

2233
01:39:04,220 --> 01:39:01,740
leading us out of the illusion of

2234
01:39:08,360 --> 01:39:04,230
helping us transcend the illusion they

2235
01:39:10,040 --> 01:39:08,370
maybe bring generating further further

2236
01:39:15,260 --> 01:39:10,050
illusions bringing us further down the

2237
01:39:17,540 --> 01:39:15,270
rabbit hole so to speak so what else

2238
01:39:19,850 --> 01:39:17,550
from this rich do we want to kind of

2239
01:39:22,610 --> 01:39:19,860
throw on the throw on the table for

2240
01:39:25,910 --> 01:39:22,620
people to consider you i've hit on some

2241
01:39:31,040 --> 01:39:25,920
of the high points from your email to me

2242
01:39:32,840 --> 01:39:31,050
is there anything else that jim i don't

2243
01:39:35,110 --> 01:39:32,850
know I I mean I think it's it's pretty

2244
01:39:38,570 --> 01:39:35,120
amazing some of what he's talking about

2245
01:39:42,490 --> 01:39:38,580
for instance I mean maybe even more

2246
01:39:45,830 --> 01:39:42,500
shocking than coming up with a

2247
01:39:48,410 --> 01:39:45,840
measurable objectively mathematically

2248
01:39:52,880 --> 01:39:48,420
confirmable definition and description

2249
01:39:55,070 --> 01:39:52,890
of consciousness is apparently he's

2250
01:39:56,960 --> 01:39:55,080
doing this with the concept of God which

2251
01:39:59,270 --> 01:39:56,970
is fascinating

2252
01:40:01,640 --> 01:39:59,280
you guys didn't dwell on it too much in

2253
01:40:03,350 --> 01:40:01,650
the in your conversation but I would

2254
01:40:05,660 --> 01:40:03,360
imagine that would jump out at a lot of

2255
01:40:07,760 --> 01:40:05,670
people he says he's the first person to

2256
01:40:11,570 --> 01:40:07,770
ever do this but I do know that Kirk

2257
01:40:14,270 --> 01:40:11,580
girdle actually I believe when he was at

2258
01:40:16,670 --> 01:40:14,280
the physics the advanced Advanced

2259
01:40:19,700 --> 01:40:16,680
Studies Institute at Princeton I think

2260
01:40:21,620 --> 01:40:19,710
came up with a mathematical proof of God

2261
01:40:26,620 --> 01:40:21,630
but I I don't know if that that to me

2262
01:40:28,520 --> 01:40:26,630
again it illustrates that sort of the

2263
01:40:33,030 --> 01:40:28,530
problems I think you're going to run

2264
01:40:35,790 --> 01:40:33,040
into if you if you try to route

2265
01:40:38,400 --> 01:40:35,800
IIIi can't he won't I can't say he's

2266
01:40:41,010 --> 01:40:38,410
trying to reduce reality to mathematics

2267
01:40:43,890 --> 01:40:41,020
but if you restrict your purview to

2268
01:40:45,960 --> 01:40:43,900
mathematics and empirical science I

2269
01:40:48,090 --> 01:40:45,970
think you know the the notion that

2270
01:40:50,640 --> 01:40:48,100
somehow you're gonna fit God whatever

2271
01:40:52,650 --> 01:40:50,650
that might be into that box sort of

2272
01:40:55,110 --> 01:40:52,660
points really highlights some of the

2273
01:40:57,060 --> 01:40:55,120
problems you're gonna have if you use if

2274
01:41:02,430 --> 01:40:57,070
you limit yourself to his approach

2275
01:41:09,240 --> 01:41:02,440
I guess if that makes sense nice nice

2276
01:41:10,950 --> 01:41:09,250
all great stuff okay so what do you

2277
01:41:12,780 --> 01:41:10,960
think I'm really interested to really

2278
01:41:16,440 --> 01:41:12,790
know what your ah your take on them oh

2279
01:41:19,320 --> 01:41:16,450
I'm a nice terms of all those issues and

2280
01:41:21,930 --> 01:41:19,330
what you where you where where he stands

2281
01:41:24,450 --> 01:41:21,940
it's I mean I guess it you know if I had

2282
01:41:27,030 --> 01:41:24,460
to place myself in terms of the guys

2283
01:41:29,280 --> 01:41:27,040
right now that I like in consciousness

2284
01:41:31,140 --> 01:41:29,290
studies I really like Bernardo Castro

2285
01:41:33,030 --> 01:41:31,150
and you're obviously you're the

2286
01:41:36,180 --> 01:41:33,040
constituency of skeptical know him very

2287
01:41:38,670 --> 01:41:36,190
well and I gathered I I'm always trying

2288
01:41:41,310 --> 01:41:38,680
to place you yeah because there's a good

2289
01:41:46,320 --> 01:41:41,320
good interviewer sometimes it's hard to

2290
01:41:48,810 --> 01:41:46,330
discern but I gather that that's kind of

2291
01:41:53,820 --> 01:41:48,820
where you stand or would like to stand

2292
01:41:55,500 --> 01:41:53,830
if you shion's yeah I think so you know

2293
01:41:59,520 --> 01:41:55,510
you're chatting a minute ago about the

2294
01:42:02,340 --> 01:41:59,530
Gnostic kind of thing and I always kind

2295
01:42:03,720 --> 01:42:02,350
of pull back a little bit on the Gnostic

2296
01:42:06,660 --> 01:42:03,730
idea because it seems to have a little

2297
01:42:22,140 --> 01:42:06,670
bit of the backdoor materialism feel

2298
01:42:25,470 --> 01:42:22,150
that you okay so from up from a kind of

2299
01:42:28,500 --> 01:42:25,480
non-dual kind of yogic philosophy none

2300
01:42:31,680 --> 01:42:28,510
of the things that kind of seems and

2301
01:42:33,960 --> 01:42:31,690
feels right to me is that that's all

2302
01:42:36,810 --> 01:42:33,970
this middle zone and what we're really

2303
01:42:40,470 --> 01:42:36,820
trying to do is transcend it and if we

2304
01:42:45,160 --> 01:42:40,480
have to stop along the river at a rock

2305
01:42:48,550 --> 01:42:45,170
that is pants psychism or idealism

2306
01:42:51,669 --> 01:42:48,560
or even a rock further back which is a

2307
01:42:52,780 --> 01:42:51,679
mathematical model of consciousness and

2308
01:42:56,410 --> 01:42:52,790
that's okay

2309
01:42:58,030 --> 01:42:56,420
but I think you know on a kind of more

2310
01:43:00,270 --> 01:42:58,040
of a faith based thing where we're

2311
01:43:02,770 --> 01:43:00,280
heading is towards something that

2312
01:43:04,570 --> 01:43:02,780
transcends all that and that would be

2313
01:43:07,930 --> 01:43:04,580
the measure of whether were Hritik

2314
01:43:10,090 --> 01:43:07,940
really getting closer it is kind of I

2315
01:43:11,830 --> 01:43:10,100
mean I've kind of said this and this is

2316
01:43:14,020 --> 01:43:11,840
maybe just private between you and I but

2317
01:43:15,340 --> 01:43:14,030
you know the sceptical thing I didn't

2318
01:43:18,130 --> 01:43:15,350
even know what I was getting into but

2319
01:43:20,350 --> 01:43:18,140
it's the inquiry to perpetuate doubt and

2320
01:43:23,770 --> 01:43:20,360
continually doubting continually saying

2321
01:43:26,140 --> 01:43:23,780
we're not there yet which I do respect

2322
01:43:27,850 --> 01:43:26,150
and appreciate about Hoffman this can't

2323
01:43:30,610 --> 01:43:27,860
possibly be right and this will

2324
01:43:32,590 --> 01:43:30,620
undoubtedly be proven wrong that in a

2325
01:43:35,050 --> 01:43:32,600
way is the deepest most profound

2326
01:43:37,479 --> 01:43:35,060
spiritual thing he can say and I'd say

2327
01:43:40,150 --> 01:43:37,489
the same thing you know from it's not

2328
01:43:44,380 --> 01:43:40,160
neti neti neti not this not this not

2329
01:43:48,450 --> 01:43:44,390
this kind of thing and for me there is

2330
01:43:52,060 --> 01:43:48,460
that that is not only an axiom but it is

2331
01:43:55,140 --> 01:43:52,070
maybe closer to an ultimate truth that

2332
01:43:58,090 --> 01:43:55,150
if we ever think we're getting towards

2333
01:44:00,370 --> 01:43:58,100
you know some answer to this then we are

2334
01:44:08,200 --> 01:44:00,380
as you said need to kind of check

2335
01:44:11,050 --> 01:44:08,210
ourselves do you accept his sort of so

2336
01:44:14,470 --> 01:44:11,060
because sometimes he speaks that way do

2337
01:44:17,709 --> 01:44:14,480
you accept a sort of stark contrast

2338
01:44:21,640 --> 01:44:17,719
between its kind of spiritual silence

2339
01:44:24,010 --> 01:44:21,650
that he speaks about and on one hand and

2340
01:44:28,180 --> 01:44:24,020
then but if you're gonna talk about it

2341
01:44:30,010 --> 01:44:28,190
mathematics and Sciences is the most you

2342
01:44:33,340 --> 01:44:30,020
know whatever the most successful and

2343
01:44:35,650 --> 01:44:33,350
precise way to do it how do you feel

2344
01:44:37,870 --> 01:44:35,660
about that I mean well have obviously

2345
01:44:40,110 --> 01:44:37,880
scientists on your show a lot of time

2346
01:44:43,209 --> 01:44:40,120
not a lot of poets or novelists or

2347
01:44:46,300 --> 01:44:43,219
composers but well I know what I thought

2348
01:44:48,430 --> 01:44:46,310
was so awesome is that when the

2349
01:44:51,970 --> 01:44:48,440
interview brought him to that level he

2350
01:44:54,290 --> 01:44:51,980
seems so authentically spiritual and at

2351
01:44:56,810 --> 01:44:54,300
that point I say you know

2352
01:44:58,820 --> 01:44:56,820
I pronoun to you you know that is your

2353
01:45:02,420 --> 01:44:58,830
path and you're being true to your path

2354
01:45:04,910 --> 01:45:02,430
so Bravo you know I think you know you

2355
01:45:07,010 --> 01:45:04,920
know I mean so it's like I see the

2356
01:45:08,510 --> 01:45:07,020
limitations the same energy do and I

2357
01:45:11,360 --> 01:45:08,520
think with a wink and a nod

2358
01:45:14,960 --> 01:45:11,370
he seems the limitations as well but he

2359
01:45:18,110 --> 01:45:14,970
like all of us says this is the man and

2360
01:45:22,130 --> 01:45:18,120
I am obligated to pursue it kind of

2361
01:45:23,990 --> 01:45:22,140
thing yeah yeah I thought really that

2362
01:45:26,270 --> 01:45:24,000
was just such a great I I thought it was

2363
01:45:28,100 --> 01:45:26,280
a fantastic interview because there was

2364
01:45:30,200 --> 01:45:28,110
so much there and he's saying some

2365
01:45:32,300 --> 01:45:30,210
things that are really important and

2366
01:45:36,880 --> 01:45:32,310
revolutionary and pioneering at least in

2367
01:45:40,010 --> 01:45:36,890
a contemporary you know ethos and you

2368
01:45:42,620 --> 01:45:40,020
simultaneously I think affirmed but also

2369
01:45:44,180 --> 01:45:42,630
clarified and sometimes pushed where it

2370
01:45:46,790 --> 01:45:44,190
was necessary and he acknowledged that

2371
01:45:49,100 --> 01:45:46,800
so I I just thought that was a very

2372
01:45:52,490 --> 01:45:49,110
productive interview I knew I wanted

2373
01:45:54,980 --> 01:45:52,500
things clarified about his thinking that

2374
01:45:55,880 --> 01:45:54,990
were clarified in that interview which

2375
01:45:57,590 --> 01:45:55,890
was fantastic

2376
01:45:59,510 --> 01:45:57,600
because I've listened to plenty of

2377
01:46:01,700 --> 01:45:59,520
interviews and read plenty of his essays

2378
01:46:04,070 --> 01:46:01,710
and things like that so I think I really

2379
01:46:06,320 --> 01:46:04,080
accomplished a lot there that's nice you

2380
01:46:09,650 --> 01:46:06,330
to say rich I also appreciate you not

2381
01:46:15,460 --> 01:46:09,660
backing down on the fact that in a way

2382
01:46:21,430 --> 01:46:19,220
yeah I don't know what he would say

2383
01:46:26,780 --> 01:46:21,440
ultimately or what he thinks ultimately

2384
01:46:29,600 --> 01:46:26,790
that in a sense consciousness is such

2385
01:46:32,060 --> 01:46:29,610
that silence whatever you say is going

2386
01:46:34,880 --> 01:46:32,070
to be about it rather than be an

2387
01:46:36,590 --> 01:46:34,890
authentic experience of it right so and

2388
01:46:38,150 --> 01:46:36,600
maybe he may be he realizes that and

2389
01:46:40,610 --> 01:46:38,160
maybe that's why he can't answer the

2390
01:46:42,650 --> 01:46:40,620
question thanks again to dr. Donald

2391
01:46:45,620 --> 01:46:42,660
Hoffman for joining me today on skeptic

2392
01:46:48,680 --> 01:46:45,630
oh and thanks to dr. rich Griego for

2393
01:46:51,500 --> 01:46:48,690
helping me set up this interview I would

2394
01:46:54,440 --> 01:46:51,510
love to have more people help me set up

2395
01:46:56,570 --> 01:46:54,450
interviews the way that rich has done

2396
01:46:59,840 --> 01:46:56,580
here as a matter of fact if you have an

2397
01:47:03,470 --> 01:46:59,850
itch for show producing and would like

2398
01:47:05,360 --> 01:47:03,480
to do something even more extensive I

2399
01:47:07,280 --> 01:47:05,370
would love to have you collaborate with

2400
01:47:08,040 --> 01:47:07,290
me no matter how ambitious your plans

2401
01:47:09,450 --> 01:47:08,050
are let's

2402
01:47:11,819 --> 01:47:09,460
find a way to make that happen I'm

2403
01:47:14,100 --> 01:47:11,829
actually kind of trying to make some of

2404
01:47:15,810 --> 01:47:14,110
those projects happen right now so let

2405
01:47:18,030 --> 01:47:15,820
me know on that let me know if you have

2406
01:47:20,580 --> 01:47:18,040
any questions or comments on this show

2407
01:47:22,379 --> 01:47:20,590
skeptical forum you can go there you can

2408
01:47:23,850 --> 01:47:22,389
email me Facebook

2409
01:47:25,740 --> 01:47:23,860
I don't really stay up on Facebook I'll

2410
01:47:28,859 --> 01:47:25,750
try and do a better job on Facebook but

2411
01:47:33,000 --> 01:47:28,869
let me know what you think share the

2412
01:47:37,459 --> 01:47:33,010
show with only those people who need to